[MW Giles]

The orders are not the only way to tell what happened, as demonstrated by Nick. Hence my comment - Really?

In fact orders are a very poor way of telling what happened

1. They only tell you what was intended, not what actually happened

2. Lots of orders are given, but never carried out - they are altered or cancelled.

3. Orders tend not to survive the first clash with the enemy

4. Many of the orders have not survived - a good way of ending a line of enquiry - the only way to find something out is to look at a document nobody has access to. Unless we see that document then anything is possible! So endeth all discussion.

The squadrons wrote ORBs and submitted reports after a sortie to the Wing and so to Group and from there to 2 TAF, who then reported to SHAEF.

Closterman's problem is that many of the actions he talks about involved other squadrons flying in a wing. Surprisingly those records agree and they agree with the daily summary collated at 2 TAF. Are all the squadrons in on the joke?

A quick look at SHAEF daily summaries that cover 8th, 9th, 1TAF, 2TAF, Fighter Command, Mediteranean Air Forces etc each day do not show 2TAF straying into 9th AF air space.

On the day we were talking about, the sweep 274 Sqn is recorded as flying did not get within 75 miles of Remagen.

Without seeing the orders I think we can show a negative

Martin