[Larry Hickey]

Tom & Jerry (did you guys used to make cartoons together?),

I have the same info that Jerry published above. The ones that he lists as "unconfirmed" are not actually unconfirmed, but the official reporting on them apparently did not survive the war. Ring and other German historians consider these to be "turks" (don't ask me where the term comes from), which were worked out or reported upon by a variety of sources, including contemporary press reports, and sometimes probably just by logic and a process of elimination, much like Robert used to reach his conclusions about the June 4th Hermichen victory over Switzerland, which is probably wrong. However, after German researchers, principally Hans Ring, developed these "turks" lists by the late 1980s, we've subsequently obtained primary sources, such as Flugbuchs, for some of these individuals, and discovered that some of the "turks" reporting on their careers was unreliable. Right now Hans Ring has all of our (EOE WG -- "Eagles Over Europe Working Group") info on Bf110 losses, and hopefully is updating them with whatever he has discovered during his research over the last 15-20 years. I have all of these "turks" lists for the "missing" ZG unit victories, which are really mostly Hans Ring's lists, but my copies, except for a few individuals, have not been updated since the late-1980s. Through this board and with help from some German historians, we've acquired reasonable confirmation of about 20-25 of these "turks" victory reports, but from now on it's going to be very tough going to fill in the approximately 25% of Bf110 victories that are currently documented only through the speculative "turks" lists. My problem with the "turks" material is that some of it is undoubtedly from high-quality sources, such as unit records and FB, and some of it is not, and I have no way of knowing what sources were used for any specific victory claim. For some pilot's/gunner's claims the "turks" lists are probably 100% accurate, and for others they may be mostly wrong, I just don't have any way of knowing which is which.

So you guys with FBs, diaries, unit records and other primary source documents on Bf110 pilots in 1939-40, as well as info from direct interviews with surviving pilots over the years, may be the only people who can help fill in the gaps as these airmen themselves are now mostly gone.

This is turning out to be very difficult problem to solve, a fact that German researchers such as Hans Ring, Winfried Bock and the late Heinrich Weiss have long known.

Regards,



Regards,