View Single Post
  #8  
Old 19th December 2014, 20:48
GuerraCivil GuerraCivil is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Finland
Posts: 228
GuerraCivil is on a distinguished road
Re: The Bf 109 losses in Spanish Civil War: verified and unverified

Discussion on the Bf 109 B-D vs. Polikarpov I-16 types 5 and 10 (I agree that "type 6" is just a type 5 with open cockpit and nothing more) certainly needs much more info base than I have at the moment. Mikhail Maslovīs books should be more available in English when it comes to Polikarpov fighters - he is told to be very accurate in technical matters. The best books on Bf 109 B-D are in German - I have recently ordered one, which should be very good. The standard reference to my knowledge is Radinger & Schick 1997 covering technical development of Bf 109 up to E.

There is of course much depending on the test flight conditions when one tries to figure out the combat performance figures of certain aircraft type. Very often the manufacturers of fighter planes represented optimistic promises which were well above the real performance of their plane in combat condition. Also if the plane is old / worn out, it does not catch the same performance as the new aircraft. I know that Soviets tested the captured Bf 109 B brought from Spain, but it is questionable if the plane was in top form in Soviet test flights. Was the top speed really just 422 km/h above 4000 meters? French tested the same plane ("6-15" of Otto Polenz), but I do not know what their evaluation was. The little I know from German test flight results is that Bf 109 B/D should have achieved about 460 - 470 km/h above 4000 meters.

Here less than perfect technical data of I-16 type 5 compared to Bf 109 B/D:

Top speed: 440 km/h at 5000 m (Bf 109 B/D about 20 - 30 km/h faster above 4000 m), speeds at sea level and other altitudes ?
Rate of climb: 6 min 18 sec. to 5000 m (Bf 109 B slower?)
Cruising speed: 300 km/h (Bf 109 B or D faster?)
Service ceiling: 9100 m (Bf 109 B equal, Bf 109 D 500 m above I-16)
Wingload: 114 kg/m2 (Bf 109 B 136 kg/m2)
Maximum flight time / endurance affecting the combat range: 70 min (Bf 109 B is given 85 minutes, D given 125 min.)

When it comes to tight turn rates and manouverability in "Kurvenkampf" (dog fight), the I-16 is known to be clearly better than the more stiff Bf 109 - and for this reason "Kurvenkampf" was avoided by Bf 109 pilots. However "mischia" (dog fight) did suit well to Fiat CR 32 which was a nimble plane and seems to have been a decent opponent to Polikarpov fighters. Fiat was equal to I-15 and survived quite well against technically superior I-16. The differences in the skills of pilots of course mattered a lot. To me it seems that I-16 pilots should have adopted "hit and run" against slower Fiats - maybe they did, but ended up to dogfight often.

It might be that also Windemuth and Nirminger had no advantage of hit and run -position over Vilajuiga on 6.2.1939 as they were on strafing mission at low altitude. So probably they ended up to a dogfight against very nimble I-15 piloted by a skilled veteran pilot and for that reason they (or at least Windemuth) went down. Bf 109 E-1 was certainly more advanced plane than I-15, but it depends on combat situation - low altitude "Kurvenkampf", overconfidence, surprise element used by undervaluated enemy etc. can make the pilot of "better plane" to remain second best.

Here is some discussion of the duel Bf 109 vs. Polikarpov I-16 over Spain:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...?f=32&t=209994

The duel between these two pioneer monoplane fighters in Spain is interesting enough for a entire book. It would be interesting to have as reliable technical data as possible and some at least roughly reliable estimate of verified losses and verified claims between the two. As much as I know the I-16 pilots shot down roughly ten Bf 109īs during SCW - Legion Condor claims vs. I-16 are multiple compared to that, but overclaiming plays its part as always.

Last edited by GuerraCivil; 19th December 2014 at 21:33.
Reply With Quote