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Old 15th January 2020, 15:16
Kapper Kapper is offline
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Re: Hartmann: claims vs. victories

Quote:
The Hartmann claims that were not mentioned during 1945 in the KBT papers should not be regarded with any hope of being accurate, in fact most could be weeks or a month wrong in there date, and type could also be incorrect.
Johannes

I couldn’t agree more but I would also extend this back to late October 1944

I went through the files Russell mentioned and came up with some interesting points from looking at the Daily Reports, which I’ve extracted some of the data focusing on Hartmann’s claims

27.10.44 – 5 claims including 3 over own airfield
5 claims on microfilm – 4xJG52 (incl only 1 to Hartmann (304), 1xI./SG10
Total 5 claims match - all accountered for

The 2nd claim for Hartmann on 27.10.44 (Il-2) that is mentioned in Barbas II./JG52 work but not in the claims film – could not have happened on this date.

01.11.44 – 17 claims for 6 lost - Maj Barkhorn 274 Hptm Hartmann 306 Ltn Duttmann 5 claims to 123 Rudel 355-360 Pz Absch
13 claims on microfilm - 12xII./JG 52 (incl Hartmann 306) & 1xSG2 – plus Barkhorn 274 and Dauttmann 5th – Total 15 claims – 2 missing

This claim is missing in Barbas II./JG52 history but is in the claims film – film correct claim number 306
Note that neither Barkhorns (274) of Duttmanns 5th are in the claims film!

07.11.44 – missing ??
- 3 claims on microfilm 2xJG52 (incl Hartmann(307)) 1xI./SG10

13.11.44 - 19 claims for 5 lost
12 claims in microfilms - 11xII./JG52 (incl Harmann 308 – 311) & 1xII./SG 2 – 7 missing

14.11.44 - 7 claims for 0 loss
5 on microfilms - 5xII./JG52 (incl Hartmann 312-313) – 2 missing

16.11.44 - 28 claims 6 Badly damaged for 4 lost
14 on microfilm - 11xII./JG52 (incl 2xHartmann 314-315), 1xI./JG 53, 1xSG2 & 1xII./SG10 -additional 3 for Barkhorn – total 17 – 11 missing

17.11.44 – 15 claims 1 lost
9 on microfilm - 8xII./JG52 (incl Hartmann 316), 1xII./SG10 – 6 missing

21.11.44 – missing
no claims in microfilm (Johannes has a claim for Hartmann on this date but cannot be verified)

22.11.44 – 6 claims
5 claims on microfilm – 2xII./JG 52 (Hartmann 317 & 318) , 2xII./SG 10, & 1xNAGr14 (not sure if this one is in the AO?) – 1 claim missing – most lists have 4 additional claims to Hartmann on this date but this is highly unlikely – not in microfilms and doesn’t add up – likely wrong date (22.12.44?).

23.11.44 – 6 claims, 2 lost –
6 claims on microfilm – 6xII./JG 52 – all claims accountered for - none to Hartmann – additional in various works for 5 Hartmann claims & 2 Barkhorn claims could not have occurred on this date (maybe 23.12.44?)

24.11.44 – Bad Weather
– Johannes list has additional 4 claims for Hartmann on this date (not in Barbas II./JG52 work) –incorrect date (poss 24.12.44?)

05.12.44 – 20 claims 4 lost
11 claims on microfilm – 10xII./JG52 (2 x Hartmann 319? – 320?) & 1xI./SG2 – 9 missing

09.12.44 – 4 claims 0 loss –
4 claims on microfilm – 3x II./JG52 (incl 2 for Hartmann 321?-322?) & 1xIII./SG10 - all accountered for

21.12.44 – Missing ??
Note II./JG52 claims on microfilm ends on 21 Dec 1944 – 3 claims on microfilm 2xII./JG52 and 1xI./JG53

22.12.44 – 19 claims, 10 badly damaged - 2 lost
– 5 claims on microfilm – 5x I./JG53 – 4 additional claims II./JG 52 (2x Sturm, 1x Lipfert, 1xEwald) – 10 missing

23.12.44 – 8 claims, 2 badly damaged 6 lost (Hartmann 328)
– 3 claims in microfilms –3x III./SG 10 – 2 additional claims II./JG52 (Lipfert & Hartmann 328) - 3 missing

Hartmann claim no.328 this date – therefore claims 323,324,325,326 & 327 missing – suspect that the claims in November 21, 22, 23 and 24 should be for December likely 21, 22, 23 (after claims in the microfilm ended for II./JG 52)

24.12.44 – 19 clains 2 without witnesses, 2 badly damaged, - 6 lost (Hartmann 3 to 331)
10 claims –9xI./JG53 & 1x I./SG10 – additional claims 4xII./JG 52, (Lipfert & Hartmann 329 – 331) – 5 missing

25.12.44 – 23 claims, 2 without witness, 2 badly damaged (Hartman 5 332- 336, Barkhorn 4 to 289)
8 clamis in microfilms –6xI./JG53 & 2x I./SG10 – additional claims 11xII./JG52 (2xLipfert, 4xBarkhorn. 5xHartmann (332-336)) – 4 missing

The dates in between are mostly bad weather (no activity) and several reports are missing. Though claims were reported on 02.11.44 (5), 26.11.44 (6), 08.12.44 (13), 11.11.44 (14), 12.12.44(1), 20.12.44(11),

also 29.12.44 – 0 Absch 0 Verl
- no claims in microfilm - Additional 2 claims for Barkhorn on this day appear incorrect (possibly extra 2 on for 25.12.44)

Also, I suspect some of the missing claims mentioned may be for Hungarian claims which I do not have – maybe Gabor can supply dates,

For Hartmanns claims in 1945
337 - 04.02.45 – in wingman Sommavilla account (Check Flugbuch)
338 & 339 – suggested date 20.02.45 – has not been confirmed by first hand information
340 & 341 – 06.03.45 in KTB
342 & 343 – 07.03.45 in KTB

344 – suggested date 09.03.45
345 – suggested date 11.03.45
346 – suggested date unkown 03.45
347 – suggested date 16.03.45
348 - suggested date 10.04.45
349 – 11.04.45 in KTB
350 – 17.04.45 in KTB

351 – suggested date 25.04.45
352 – 08.05.45 Tolliver/Constable (Hartmann) account

I reluctantly added the last but still I’m not convinced.

My argument all along is how sure are we of the base data when comparing claims.

Regards,

Craig..
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