View Single Post
  #5  
Old 1st February 2007, 13:50
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,917
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe loss, 15 October 1941

Here is what I have about this action

I) RAF activity from the 1941 Fighter Command file available on Tony Wood website

RAF 11 Group Ramrod 1: Dock-yards LE HAVRE
12.00: RAF 2 Group 12 Blenheim IV
(2 Blenheim IV lost)
Escort Wing: Tangmere
RAF 11 Gp. Woodhouse 1 Spitfire Vb 11.53-13.10 Ramrod 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F No casualty L-BS: Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 W/Cdr. H.C.A. Woodhouse 11 Group Tangmere 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F 12.45 ca: Le Havre

RAF 11 Gp. 129 Sqn. 12 Spitfire Vb 11.53-13.10 Ramrod 1 - 0 - 0 Me109F No casualty L-BS: Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 Pilot 11 Group 129 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F 12.35 ca: Le Havre
Escort-Cover Wing: Ibsley
RAF 10 Gp. 118 Sqn. 12 Spitfire Vb 12.30- Ramrod 2 - 0 - 0 Me 109F No casualty L-BS: Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 Pilot 11 Group 118 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 Pilot 11 Group 118 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 Me 109F Le Havre
RAF 10 Gp. 234 Sqn. 12 Spitfire Vb 12.30- Ramrod 1 - 1 - 3 Me 109F 1 Cat.3m Fighters L-BS: Le Havre
Cat.3m 15.10.41 Sgt. H.R. Barnett: kia 10 Group 234 Sqn. Spitfire Vb: P8714 Me 109s: Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 S/Ldr. H.M. Stephen 10 Group 234 Sqn. ½ - 0 - 0 Me 109F Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 F/O P.I. Howard-Williams 10 Group 234 Sqn. ½ - 0 - 0 Me 109F Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 Pilot 10 Group 234 Sqn. 0 - 1 - 0 Me 109F Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 Pilot 10 Group 234 Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109F Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 Pilot 10 Group 234 Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109F Le Havre
Claim 15.10.41 Pilot 10 Group 234 Sqn. 0 - 0 - 1 Me 109F Le Havre
RAF 2 Group Light-Bomber:
RAF 2 Gp. 226 Sqn. 6 Blenheim IV 13.46- Ramrod 1 0 - 0 - 0 n/a 2 Cat.3m Lost Tasked: Le Havre
Cat.3m 15.10.41 P/O R.M. Hudson raaf: kia 2 Group 226 Sqn. Blenheim IV: Z7493: Y Me 109s: Le Havre
Cat.3m 15.10.41 Sgt. D. Poulston: kia 2 Group 226 Sqn. Blenheim IV: Z7493: Y Me 109s: Le Havre
Cat.3m 15.10.41 Sgt. G.S. Needler: kia 2 Group 226 Sqn. Blenheim IV: Z7493: Y Me 109s: Le Havre
Cat.3m 15.10.41 Sgt. S.L.T. Paine: kia 2 Group 226 Sqn. Blenheim IV: Z7494: Z Me 109s: Le Havre
Cat.3m 15.10.41 Sgt. G.R. Banks: kia 2 Group 226 Sqn. Blenheim IV: Z7494: Z Me 109s: Le Havre
Cat.3m 15.10.41 Sgt. W.J.S. Wolstenholme: kia 2 Group 226 Sqn. Blenheim IV: Z7494: Z Me 109s: Le Havre
Summary for Ramrod 1 on 15th October 1941 to dock-yards at Le Havre. Fighters taking part 5 squadrons, 61 sorties, 5-1-4 claimed for 1 lost. Bombers taking part 12 Blenheim IV of 2 Group, 2 lost: strikes on 10,000-ton Tanker and 5,000-ton MV. Ref: RAF/FC Summary of Sorties (Air 16/1307)

II) German claims (from Jim P file, also available from Tony's website)

15-10-1941 Ltn.Rüdiger Kirchmayr 4.(Eins)/JFS 5 Spitfire Octeville 16.13 n.b. no Prien/Bock
15-10-1941 Uffz. Joses Jennewein 4.(Eins)/JFS 5 Spitfire Le Havre - 4 yes Prien/Bock
15-10-1941 Uffz. Peter Gerth 4.(Eins)/JFS 5 Spitfire Le Havre - 10 yes Prien/Bock
15-10-1941 Uffz. Peter Gerth 4.(Eins)/JFS 5 Spitfire Le Havre - 11 yes Prien/Bock
15-10-1941 n.n. 4.(Eins)/JFS 5 Spitfire Le Havre - yes Prien/Bock
15-10-1941 n.n. 4.(Eins)/JFS 5 Spitfire Le Havre - yes Prien/Bock
15-10-1941 Uffz. Joses Jennewein 4.(Eins)/JFS 5 Blenheim Le Havre - 5 yes Prien/Bock
15-10-1941 Ltn. Bodo Helms 4.(Eins)/JFS 5 Blenheim Le Havre - 2 yes Prien/Bock

So German claims were correct for Blenheims and overclaims 5 to 1 for Spitfires.
Other claims this day for RAF bombers were against unescorted shipping strikes.

III) German losses (from Avions HS n° 15, about the Luftwaffe fighters losses in France in 1941)

Three losses for 15 October 1941:

All three for 4.(Eins)/JFS 5:
Bf 109 F-2 WNr 1291 destroyed 100% in crash near Le Havre. Pilot Ltn Elmar Resch bailed out and injured
Bf 109 E-7 WNr 7677 destroyed 100%, crashed near Epouville, 11 km NE Le Havre, after air battle and being fired at by own Flak
Bf 109 F-1 WNr 5617 (or 5611 according to another source) destroyed at 65% in landing accident on Fl.Pl Le Havre

So two combat losses, and one that may or not be combat-related but is not in German documents

So, while both sides claimed victory, both overclaimed and it was actually a draw for aircraft losses (3 AC by each side).

I have no idea if the target (ships) was hit or not. No damage or sinking is listed in my sources for this day and area

Reply With Quote