[Iain Torrance]

Hello Many & Bernard

Thanks for your comments.

Firstly on whether P2195 at Artaise is Hobler’s plane.

From photographs (a Srl. No. visible, others with village in background) and local French records (via Arnaud) stating P2195, it is certain for me that P2195 is the wreck at Artaise and it is indeed is the same as the wreck at p364 of Peter’s book.

I stated P2195 was ‘almost certainly’ that of Hobler as I was aware of the quote now cited by Many (from ‘Valiant Wings’) referring to the wings being folded back. However it is burnt-out (consistent with Hobler’s burns), contemporary photos show trees at the top of the hill behind the wreck, it certainly appears to have slithered down the hill (note the severe bending back of the props), and P2195 was recorded as lost that day. Indeed I have seen a German photo captioned ‘17.5 Artaise’.

Also there is another problem; if it is not Hobler’s plane, what other burnt out 142 Squ wreck – located in enemy territory as at 14 May - is proposed in the alternative to P2195 as being that of Hobler? And who flew P2195, if not Hobler?

Hence, on balance, I’d still go with P2195 confirmed at Artaise being ‘almost certainly’ the Hobler plane (my only reservation is the account of wings folded back).

Secondly on Timings.

In respect of the 142 ORB. I’ve not seen the ‘draft’ referred to by Arnaud (stated as being held by the Midland Aircraft Recovery Group) but there is a 142 Squ ORB for May and June 1940 at the PRO (AIR 27/972) and I have a copy to hand as I type. The timing in that ORB for the ‘Hobler operation’ is given as 13.30, the same time as per draft ORB via Arnaud (not a different time as I previously thought). I would take 13.30 as a reported ‘planes up’ time but it is much earlier than both the Hobler account and the timing of the orders being issued.

However the 142 Squ ORB document at the PRO needs to be treated with great care. It was written after the return to England. In Fly Past (Jan & Feb 1990) it is stated it was written by Sgt Rudd in early October 1940, almost four months after the return from France. I now quote in full, from that publication, the letter from Rudd to W/C Saddler dd 11 Oct 1940

Sir

I submit for your approval, prior to typing, this record of the Squadron’s work in France. It has been compiled to a small extent from matters available in the Operational Files, partly from private sources, but largely from memory. Owing to the discrepancies of dates and times, frequent time lapses and oft-times hazy or only partial recollection induced by the rapid sequence of events, and in spite of the check and cross-check of information thus gleaned, errors no doubt exist.

Nevertheless, these I believe to be few and of inconsequential moment in so far as they do not greatly affect the facts.

Although I feel sure all sources of information are now exhausted, if anyone can offer corrections to or further matter for this record, then I will gladly co-operate to achieve a more satisfying degree of completeness.

Hence, hardly a definitive contemporary record !!! I presume ‘private sources’ in this context would be mainly referring to aircrew Log Books. I have found Log Books to be reliable docs, but we can not know the sources of individual data in the ORB. It is worth mentioning that 103 Squ also wrote up their ORB after returning from France. For context this is the introduction to the 103 Squadron ORB:

The following summary of operations has been compiled from pilots log books and from memory, since the original squadron records were lost in the final evacuation of the squadron from France. Every care has been taken to obtain accuracy, but the authenticity of the detail cannot be guaranteed.

I would speculate the writing up of the records may have had something to do with the delayed AASF gallantry awards in November. In any event the weight of evidence points towards to the 13.30 timing being incorrect.

I certainly continue to keep an open mind on these events and very much look forward to Many’s version. The records for the Battle of France are fragmented and sometimes conflicting. It remains a constant challenge for us all to not jump to conclusions !

Hope these (somewhat long) comments help.

Kind regards to all

Iain