Hi Rod,
I'm going to have to check back through some things and make some inquiries regarding your specific questions. However here are some things that are pertinent and an argument presented by some German researchers.
Supplied by Radavan Helt to Ray Collins (see amendment above)
A crew of a 50th Sqn a/c recorded after the Brux raid;
“At 2152 hours a fighter aircraft was sighted, port quarter down, at approx, 5000N, 1110E, and at 2204 hours an aircraft was sighted going down at approx. 5020N, 1200E” between German Towns of Hof & Plauen
(Source: Michael Heaton's (Navigator) Log Book, 50 Squadron)
The crew on Lancaster “S”, SW 254 of 619 Squadron reported after Brux raid as well- “ a large whitish explosion seen at 5026N, 1220E at 2209 hours”
(Source: Report by McMorran’s Crew, 619 Squadron)
It is however safe to say that some of the timeline is "supposition", "deduction" - or "filling in the gaps" as you put it, although based around the known information - the consulted German files being held by Winfried Bock a historian near Munich (At this moment I cannot confirm what the files are precisely). So here is the case presented by Prof. Jorg Helbig, Dr.Rudolf Laser and Winfried Bock, note that elements of part {a} of this argument differ in some details to the most up to date timeline that Ray Collins has...regarding information contained within eyewitness reports...
again this is sans editing...
{a} for most of the claims no locations exist and also a many have no combat times so
a 100% confirmations could not be done with the available data.
All those claims what we have were just preliminary confirmed, with no official confirmation
take place during this stage of the War, the “Kommission” give is work up during January 45.
This is the basic info.
Most of the claims and shoot downs by Fighter regarding the Magdeburg raiders those were heavily engaged followed on by the Zeitz raiders (most BC Losses were on the homeward route).
But we’re facing an early claim/Loss for the Brux op. during this operation.
Dr. Theo Boiten has written in his book NACHTJAGD War Diaries Vol. 2 page 231 ff about the Fighter elements during this Airraid.
A few important extracts and facts ..
LM 472 and the Bruxformation (bombed between 22.3o and 22.59 hrs local time) came in across France and make east, first Zeitz and Brux planes are in the same formation and at same time another bomberstream make landfall and set course for Magdeburg.
The Fightercontrollers now facing a serious problem which of those formation would be engaged the southern one or the northern one…
The times goes by and nothing reasonably taking places.
LM 472 war around 20.15 hrs over Luxemburg same time the controllers give the order Fighter should go to this area, around 20.35 hrs LM 472 crossed the Rhine near Koblenz
2o.5o hrs controllers sending the Fighter urgently to Koblenz area, again too late, formation long gone in easterly direction (Frankfurt area).
Elements of the NJG 1 came in contact with the Zeitz/Brux raiders around 21.oo hrs NE of Frankfurt, and one lonely combat was fought with the result
Lancaster NN 712 12.Sqn was s/d by Hptm.D Schmidt 7./NJG 1 21.15 hrs and cr. at Büdingen (one of the confirmed actions during this op.)
a few more Fighters of the NJG 1 and NJG 5 were into the stream but no combat were seen or claims were made until the Schweinfurt area Northbavaria.
The next “accident/incident” we do not know what is really was involved two Canadian a/c again from the Zeitz force.
Eyewitness stating around 22.oo hrs (time unconfirmed) two planes colliding
over Pfaffhausen and exploding in the air…neither Flakfire was seen nor was seen a Nightfighterattack…Lancaster PB 402 /405.Sqn and Lancaster KB 850 /434.Sqn .
Coincident the luckless Fw.Heinrich Lahmann 9./NJG 1 claimed and got one
“Halifax” 21.56 hrs combat time it is absolutely unclear which plane he “engaged” he became heavy return fire from an other Lancaster and broke up the engagement one engine on fire his odyssey ended in Thuringia he was seen on fire heading prob. to Erfurt ? but came no further than this and he baled out, his crew was killed and his plane crashing…he self was KIA at 21.2.45 too and so he became his claim posthum no corresponding loss found.
He was NEAR LM 472 but I think he made no attack on the aircraft because
The formation split into two Zeitz make to the northeast and Brux go southeast to the Vogtland region.
Splitting was made I think 21.55 hrs over Northbavaria.
NOW LM 472 must came into the Focus.
The time given in your report around 22.04 up to 22.09 hrs (seen also from another aircrew)
Seems the right time for the combat
And here we have a GAP in the Fighterrecords! No corresponding claim with a time between ’04-’09 is visible!
The last is Lahmann 21.56 hrs to early and he broke away on fire maybe he tangling with The Canadian planes at Pfaffhausen but not with LM 472.
22.o3 and 22.o5 two claimes were made confirmed as Magdeburg raiders Hannover area..has nothing to do with us.
The next visible claim is at 22.lo hrs Lt. Joachim Sommerau III./NJG 1 (his first claim ever) a “Halifax” could not be indentified maybe one of those Magdeburg raiders too, I have a confirmed report 22.lo Halifax NA 603 578.Sqn (Magdeburg raid)cr. exact at this time near Schoppenstedt far away from Geilsdorf. I think he was in combat with the NA 603.
The next claim with a combat time came at 22.11 hrs from the same pilot made the claim 22.o3 hrs another BC Loss Magdeburg raid nr. Hannover.and the pilot from 22.o5 hrs claimed again 22.14 hrs all this has taken place in the Hannover area.
And then we have 6 maybe 7 claims made in the Magdeburg area nobody argued this again those fit not in with a BC Loss nr. Plauen.
So what else have we here of OTHER Claims?
We have Oblt.Peter Ehrhardt 2./NJG 5 claimed one Lancaster my source Hr.Bock give me the info this claim is very unsure poss. also turned down, but in a few records it could be found.
Ehrhardt came from the first Group Nightfighterunit five based here in Thuringia Prob. take off at Erfurt. I think he attacked one of those planes came down in this area (Thuringia) there we could count three.
And we have THREE Lancaster (confirmed by the OKL) shot down by the Kommodore of the Nightfighterunit 5 Obstlt.Walter Borchers he was based here switching around between the aerodromes of Erfurt, Altenburg
because Mosquitos are there every night and so you must hiding your presence day by day.
he took off and made his way to the west, the order give out, go into the stream at the Frankfurt area, we do not know if he came to this point, but he was on the southern formation of bombers up until 22.o2 hrs ! exact at this time the bombing of Zeitz has begun and the controllers give the new order all available Fighters with enough fuel has made for the Zeitz area
Borchers was one of those and he made his way to this point, again he was a little late go into combat with no results came from and hunt on found the tail of the homegoing bombers near Sangerhausen/ Nordhausen and shoot 22.3o hrs
two Lancasters in rapid succession down, than he turned away and landed nearby at Erfurt (fuel tanks must now been empty too).
So we could accounting for two of his three Lancasters.
BUT which identity has Claim three ? poss. the first one? Was it LM 472 ? I think so.
See the timeframe 22.o2 hrs, all were ordered to Zeitz, the attack on LM 472 was placed around 22.o4 hrs so it is possible and very likely, that he made this before he broke away and made for Zeitz..I think so.
He must hunt them down for a time, could not made an attack, because he was too late first he run westwards, than turned around, try to catch the stream again all this taking time, and he made no contact before 22.00 hrs and he must have seen the existence of the force see those two blewing up aircrafts at Pfaffhausen, so he flew on … when he found the Bombers, he was ordered to go to Zeitz.
…I read the Report of J.Knight..he stating fire was seen and spread over one wing, for me clearly a sign of an attack with oblique firing guns (unseen) from below in one of the wings between the engines, set the fuel tanks on fire, than you have a maximal chance for 3 minutes to go out before the fire reaching the tanks and the plane exploding.
Normally you jettisoned not the bombs because you’re in the process to abandon the plane. It’s a waste of time and make no sense (LM 472 crashed with all bombs on bord!) try to put the fire out when you dive down make just sense when the fire is not too severe in this case I don’t know…F/O Mc Gonigle give immediately the order to abandon the a/c, so the fire in the wing raging too much to bear, JK stating but no one left the aircraft…why? .. and than exploded at 10.000 ft …attacked 17.000 exploded 10.000 …curious…
what was going after he said to the crew prepare to abandon the a/c and the following explosion… he dived 7000 ft down after he said this, the reason for this I think the fighter came back and made a second run, he has seen the aircraft on fire, but go not down, so he decided made another attack on him. Mc Gonigle see this and try to evade this second attack dived down but with no to avail, he was seen on fire very low (? again we know not for sure the height..) come in and then exploded .
I think the fighter has got him again at 10.000 ft and in this altitude the plane exploded (Borowski has seen and heard those combat from his point at Schwand - we have spoken with him many times).
What the eyewitness has seen were just the parts of the Lancaster see the wide area in which those pieces were found, when you made a force landing this would be not scattered so far away albeit when the bombs exploding but in this case it is confirmed no bombs blew up Neither in the air nor on the ground.
This would be good fit in with the timeframe of an 5 Minute gap before the Explosion was seen in the air at 22.o9 hrs (22.o4 first attack).
Mc Gonigle try not to make a force-landing at Geilsdorf, the order he give was abandon the a/c as JK has stated in his Report. But he must take evasive actions again than the Fighter came back and so he dived down,
But now he could not settle down the plane a second time and the fire has reached now the fueltanks and this was the end, usually you have 3 minutes and LM 472 struggled on for 5 minutes this was 2 minutes too long.
I think Borchers was also one of those two fighter seen by aircrews 22.22 hrs over Zeitz! He tangled there again with the bombers.. and than made its way to the region of Thuringia added two more on. The other one over Zeitz was poss. Peter Ehrhardt, no other Pilot known there.
{b} But in the minds of the people know this incident the "friendly fire accident" is still preferential. There is no belief in the Fightercase.
But let me affirm you, there was a combat. And here came a few facts against the gunner accident.
Why should a gunner shot at an other plane when NO Nightfighter was (seen)in the formation?
They flew straight ahead to Brux no combat took place until this fatal 22.04 hrs.
And how could a gunner set just one wing on fire ??! he would have shot into (or also) the fuselage but not into the wing-(proof this attack came unseen from below, with oblique guns, the Fighter was homing on with NAXOS Device-it take a little time- then slip under the aircraft and give one burst into the wings and the tanks- and turn away and wait what happened..) This was seen by the Pole.
But nothing else took place, the plane flew on, but now albeit on fire.. than he decide to came back and hereby maybe was SEEN by one of the crewmember, not from Jack Knight, and the Pilot try now to evade the inevitable second attack (seen by the villagers as "Circling around") during this time he must came very low and he had also not the time to jettsioned the load! when you opened the bombbay they were too much drag and the possibility that the Fighter struck you in this moment are very high, and than I think either the fire was reaching the fueltanks or the second attack was fatal and let LM 472 blew up.
both is conceivable.
When this were just one "friendly fire accident" then the Crew have take the chutes and jump out one by one but here just Jack Knight came out by the follow on explosion of the plane. why?
The gunner must have been aware of his mistake and silence his guns.. here
we have mere a running battle and this taking NEARLY 5 Minutes!!
I dont understand ? A Gunner held his fire 5 minutes onto a plane, until its exploding? Seems to me very implausible.
Okay the ORS has given the Cause of Loss as this, BUT WERE THEY there at Geilsdorf 16.1.45 a few minutes after 22.oo hrs?? I think not. all what they have was a report not more. A classical case of a "misunderstanding".
We let us not confusing with this matter.
....so those are some thoughts from the German side I think....any additional comments...what do you think?...and there is confirmation of a fighter in the bomber stream....
Do you know what information is held in AIR 14/3412 "Operational Research Section: final reports on operations, night raids, Nos. 621-914, 1944 June-1945 May" and AIR 14/2689 "Operational Research Section reports 1944 Nov.-1945 Feb"? Do or could these contain information about the loss of LM472 and the designation as a "friendly fire" incident. I rang kew to see if they could give me any more information about the content of these files but they couldn't over the phone.
Thor!!
PS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RodM
upon checking the air combat report database at the National Archives website, it seems that a combat report for a 57 Sqdn (5 Group, attacked Brux) aircraft relating to 16 Jan 1945 is held. No such claim is mentioned in the 5 Group Form Z, nor is it mentioned in the BC Interception Tactics Report...the report could just be a pro forma combat report, mentioning a sighting of an enemy aircraft with no claim.
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The raid report, see here
http://www.na237.net/raid_report.html states that an (unsubstantiated) claim was made by a bomber on the way to Brux...perhaps this relates to the combat report you have identified. I don't believe that any German a/c were reported to have been shot down in the vicinity.