[Marius]

Hi Franek,


Marius

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius
Pawlak published Skalski`s origin report (Samotne zalogi, page 82. Look also Lotnictwo 5/05). In the report there is only one crash of a German aircraft - certainly Bf 110 of Müllenheim-Rehberg, also attacked by Lesniewski. The other attacked aircraft flew away in formation and Skalski couldn`t chase it. Will you deny it?

I have a copy of the original report, as well as I think most of the other ones of the unit (all from the combat). They clearly note Skalski and Leśniewski fought with two different formations. Fullstop. Skalski had a clash with a defensive circle while Leśniewski attacked a formation flying in a vic. The aircraft seen fly away by Skalski were from the other formation, not the one he fought with. It is clear when comparing his report, his report from the UK and his memoirs.


Perhaps both pilots didn`t attack at exactly the same minute. The Polish reports mean two formations, because Lesniewski and Skalski didn´t attacked together. Nevertheless they could have attacked the same formation from different directions. I think Skalski shot at the same aircraft Lesniewski attacked a while earlier (of which one man baled out). "Defensive circle" of the Bf 110`s - or whatever it was - could have been made after the attack by Lesniewski. And after that appeared Skalski on the scene (from other direction) and shot at the aircraft where still onboard was Müllenheim-Rehberg. Than Skalski saw Müllenheim-Rehberg`s aircraft crash on the ground. Lesniewski saw the (same) aicraft crash on the ground.


The report does not mention if the second aircraft crashed but it does not have a comment it did not. The latter was present in his other reports from 4 September. It is clear he forget in haste to add the sentence.


Oh yeah, he forgot to report that the aicraft crashed on the ground... Perfectly. And also the Germans forgot to report about their Bf 110 crashing on the ground. The names of the air crew were also forgotten. And the graves of the German air crew disappeared after the liberation 1945...


Quote:
Franek, one of Skalski`s report was written in 1941 (!!), as many others too. You are writing about Polish documents written in France (earliest October/November 1939). That is right. And therefore you confirm that most of the origin Polish documents were going lost!


Many were lost but a lot survived, though in varying degree depending on unit. For III/4 there is a nice set of documents, there are some for Brygada Pościgowa and there is some for the bomber units. There are also numerous diaries written at the time of combats like Ferić's diary. Many of the reports written in France and UK were based on personal notes and documents hold by the airmen. For example, Rolski's report. You do not have such a complete set of narratives for the German units.


About the documents for III/4, Pursuit Brigade and Feric`s diary you can find a lot of things in the book written by Cynk (Polskie lotnictwo...). Also nothing really surprising me.
You are wrong commenting the German documents in this way (by the way; in my book there is no bibliography for Kampfflieger, but for Jagdflieger again - a mistake made by the publisher).
I needed several years to check what I found in Bundesarchiv. And this is not the question of quantity of the documents. More important is the quality and reliability of them. Though all mentioned above origin Polish documents are confirming what I am writing in my books and articles - if you interpret them in the right way with German documents in the other hand, but you won`t accept it. Obviously you will do anything to deny any information coming from Germany.


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So you confirm that Polish authors wrote fairy-tales? Great...
Did you find something that is contradictory to my research? Source? Document? Please give more details.
I clearly wrote that most of the books were written without access to archival stuff which was and is held in London. Therefore they were based mostly on memories and as such contain several errors.


It makes a big difference if the author is writing a whole fairy-tale or if he makes some errors. These errors are much visible when you study origin German documents. And you will see this in the future. Also the (until now) undiscovered origin Polish documents (if they really exist) surely will confirm the German documents. The Polish documents mentioned above do it and all the others will do it. Why? Because I am reproducing what origin German documents say. So simple. Otherwise there are many differences when you compare what was written later in France and England. Even this is not only clashing with original German but also with original Polish documents from September 1939. Skalski`s different reports make this problem clearly visible.

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My dear! Even the GQM records are relating about one man parachuted of I./ZG 1 (in the origin FSA what means Fallschirmabsprung - bale out). Also Hans Weng survived the war and reported later about his baling out and captivity in Poland (see for example one of the Jägerblatt issues).

GQM notes it was Muehlenheim-Rehberg who reputedly baled out. It does not read FSA by the way. You mention an account of Weng but obviously it was written several years after the war. Why do you consider it accurate? The one of Steffens (gunner of Hammes) is not very accurate.


Yes indeed, according to GQM Mühlenheim-Rehberg baled out, but this means an original report. The German fellows saw one man baled out and directly after the combat they believed it was their Gruppenkommandeur. But in fact it was his radio operator Weng. Later Weng confirmed that he baled out. And the story is true, because the pilot fell to death in the crashed aircraft. There is no reason for darkening these facts. Just simple information you have to interpret in the right way.


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I cleared my mistake with KG 3 later in my answer to J.B.Cynk. In the meanwhile I have found the archive documents of Prof.Trenel (BA/MA Freiburg), who confirms that there were no engagemnets between KG 3 and Polish fighters on 2.9.

You noted that you cannot verify if KG3 suffered any losses. Nevermind. The question is, what was the unit engaged by the Polish fighters. As long as you cannot identify it, you cannot write they suffered no losses.


I couldn`t do before some years, but now I can. KG 3 didn`t had any losses on 2.9. If you don`t believe it see in my book Kampfflieger, where I detailed describe the action of every German bomber unit. Otherwise Luftwaffe lost in September 1939 78 bombers. You will find in my book the fate of every single aircraft with date, location, cause and so on.
By the way I identified the unit III/4 fought with. It was only I./ZG 1.


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What bomber type? Who reported this? What is the name of the airman? What unit?
Leśniewski, he identified the aircraft as a Do 17. They were flying in a vic of 5.


My god! This was the Bf 110 of Müllenheim-Rehberg. You don`t understand this fact? Or you won`t understand? Do you have a better interpretation of this aerial fighting? Give it up, it is senseless to deny the simpelst facts.


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Okay. Who else reported about two-engined aircraft? Source, page number?
Diary of the unit, p. 5 & 6, report of Rolski, p. 7 & 8. Actually there were only two reports filed after the second combat, one by Pniak and one by Skalski. The latter mentions Ju 87s only, although in the later accounts he identified his opponents as Me 109s.


Also Cynk (Polskie lotnictwo...) is writing about Me 110 as according to the diary of the unit. But I asked for the term "twin-engined aircraft". If there is nothing about twin-engined aircraft, but only about Me 110`s or whatever other type, so my interpretation is better one than yours. As I wrote formerly the pilots described the single-engined fighters as "Bf 110`s". And on 2.9. the Bf 110`s as "Do 17`s". Tne conclusion is: they couldn`t describe the aircraft as what they really were called. And perhaps they didn`t all over the war. This isn`t a new information. Many authors wrote about these problems, even Cynk.
And in origin reports Pniak was credited with 1 Ju 87 destroyed (!!). Cynk is writing about this fact and is wondering himselves about Pniaks "two-engined aircraft".



Quote:
Okay. See Cynk "Polskie Lotnictwo..." page 247. Bajan`s list on 4.9.:
kpt. Lesniewski 1 Me 110.

See the book and check when the Bajan's list was prepared.


The Bajan`s list was prepared on documents they had at that time (1945). According to the origin diary of III/4 it was a "Me 110", wasn`t it? So what again is your problem?


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Okay, thank you very much. You are really helpful.
I do have copies of documents, Me 110 was added by Rolski already in France. Previously there were only Do 17s!


Oh yes, great. And you think in France he remembered exactly every single day, correctly every single aircraft he saw in Poland?


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Oh yes... in France, but not in Poland. That is the big difference.
When filing the report in Poland he was apparently not awared of the type. So simple.


Yes, but again, later he remembered it exactly and every single day. Sorry, this is much to less for seroius discussion.


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Surely it was for Germans very difficult to differ P.11 and P.24. They are very similar and the German pilots was told the Poles were flying the newest aicraft. But no way. It makes a bigger difference when you cannot differ fighter from bomber aircraft.
Then compare dimensions and silhouette of Me 110 and Do 17, the latter in typical Bleistifft variant with inline engines as appearing in the aviation press of the period.


That is not the point. For German pilots it wasn`t important if they fought with P.7, P.11 or P.24. Practically these types were the typical charasterictic Polish fighter aircraft. No matter how they called it. The misinterpretation by Poles of Me 110 for Do 17 had bad consequenses for themselves when they attacked the Messerschmitt in the front of 2 canons and 4 machine guns.


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On 4.9. I.(J)/LG 2 surely fought with III/4. Or could you report another Polish squadron did?
There were two separate combats of III/4. I cannot exclude I.(J)/LG2 took part only in one of them. Anything on your side to verify time of the mission?


Yes, I can explain that. The first combat at appr. 12:30 was fought with Ju 87`s of 8. and 9.Staffel/StG 2.
The second combat, about one hour later, was fought with 7.Staffel/StG 2 and 1.(J)/LG 2. Even origin Skalski`s report is confirming that. He evidently damaged an aircraft of 7.Staffel of which the Bordfunker bale out to his death. Skalski reported exactly the same thing.


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We know I./ZG 1 is a problem. But there is no evidence of downed Bf 110 on this day. In Poland Bf 110`s operated as "Rotte" (two-aircraft formation). Pniak reported about 3 aircraft that were attacking him. Certainly a "Kette" - 3 Ju 87 of III./StG 2, not 3 Bf 110`s. I think Pniak didn`t recognized the aircraft right. Your argumentation is weak. Other sources for twin-engined aircraft?

What makes you believe Me 110s flew in sections of two and no other formation? Rolski describing tactics of Me 110s mentioned sections and not pairs, he also described an attack of three Me 110s on Leśniewski.


See for example the origin document of the experiences of I.(Z)/LG 1 published in Jagdflieger. German fighter units (Bf 109 and Bf 110) generally never operated with 3 aircraft. But the bombers did. And Polish units did it also. Nevertheless 3 Me 110 (surely Me 109) behind Lesniewski is possible (but only exceptionally).


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Oh, you are wrong about Pniak. See Cynk Polskie Lotnictwo... page 182 for 2.9. Pniak reported that his victim - a Dornier - hit the ground.
On 4.9. see page 242. Pniak reported the aircraft he attacked hit the wood. Both reports are origin combat reports written on 4 September!
III./StG 2 had one aircraft totally lost and this one was downed by Lachowicki-Czechowicz. Perhaps Pniak wasn`t a black sheep but only had a big fancy...

I thought you are reffering to 4 September combat only. The phrase used by Pniak literally does not mean hit the wood, rather fell down over the wood. Pilots reported various things, how about claims of I(J)/LG2? Only one P.11 was destroyed, the one of Leśniewski. How would you describe them? Liars or black sheeps?


Franek! My wife was teaching Polish language and she says: it means that the aircraft "fell into the wood" and you have to understand it also as if the aircraft "crashed into the wood". I am very sorry, but my wife exactly knows what she says.
I.(J)/LG 2: if all 3 pilots had reported their aircraft hit the ground, and I could exclude that they all shot at the same aircraft of Lesniewski, so I would say that there is a black sheep under them. Why not?
Again you are refering to Pniak. You can be sure on 2.9. Pniak did not shot at the same aircraft as Lesniewski. Nevertheless he saw his victim crash on the ground. According to German documents there was only 1 Bf 110 lost. This is confirmed not only by one, but by several documents: GQM loss list and Fliegerdivision 1 loss list. But also by Fliegerdivision 1 daily loss list, where 1 Bf 110 was reported lost until 16:00 hours. The same fact is reported by Prof. Trenel who during the war saw other documents (perhaps even the war diary of I./ZG 1).
I described above (with explanation of my wife) what Pniak reported on 4.9. On that day III./StG 2 lost only one aircraft which indeed crashed on the ground. Even Pawlak (Samotne zalogi, page 91) and Cynk (Polskie lotnictwo, page 241) confirm what I am talking about and what German documents are talking about. The authors wrote something about personal papers of Wilhelm Berschneider, exactly the pilot who fell in the crashed aircraft according to German documents.
So in 3 days Pniak reported about two aircraft he claimed shot down and which - as he described - in the result fell or crashed on the ground. Unfortunate accident? Do you think under Poles there was no one who could report after combat about things that never happened? Yes I see, one time the pilot could have seen too much. But two times in three days? I will call a little bit suspect.

Marius