[Andrey Dikov]

Hello, Franek,

Just one and last reply to this thread, because you gradually move the discussion to political offtopic.

>While I cannot discuss the number at the moment, there is a vaery important thing said about filtration camps. From Marsayo's post we can lear that last POWs left them in March 1945, 10 months after the end of the war. To make it clear for our Western readers, this was not equal to demobilisation.

Naturally! Keeping in mind a number of Soviet collaborants – up to 1 million according to some estimates: not only Hiwi units, SS divisions, so-called Kossack and Caucasian divisions, but a large number of local Polizei members. There are a lot of evidences, that the latter were responsible in a lot of purges on occupied territories of Belarus, Estonia, Latvia and Ukraine – against jews, partisans etc. Some of them were judged, some, after a long investigations, released.


>This means, that POWs remained imprisoned(!) for quite a lenghty period of time. Now, we arive to the differencies, so hardly acceptable by Andrey. Allied POWs remained as such as long as there was a transport available. Questioning procedure existed but it was a quick filling of a form. In case of any doubts a man could have been called back, but there was no reason to hold him behind the wire. They were quickly released and attached to units or demobbed.

See above about collaborants. Do you know something about SS Division Scottland or SS Division Alabama? I don’t.


> Just a different approach to a human being.

Different, but not so much dramatically you try to present it.



>The same difference that could be shown on example of aviation designers.

We weren’t talking about the fates of aviation designers and Stalin repressions in general. We’re talking about the fates of former POWs, aviators. Don’t try to change the subject of discussion, please.


>There is also an important note of reconstruction, dismantling and labour units in Marsayo's post. This is an euphemism for penal units, but not to be confused with shtrafbats, eg. of Gu-ga novel. Those were forced labour units subordinated to army and working on military installations. They often consisted of 'unstable material' like Poles or Ukrainians drafted befor the German invasion. A kind of different name for the same job.


You’ve answered your question by yourself. It’s not an euphemism and it’s not a gulag (you was talking about previously). They were still in army, and should be used.

By the way, what do Gu-Ga novel have with Gulag or the fate of former POWs? Have you read it or at least seen the movie? In this novel the cadet of aviation school made a military crime during a war time period (hijacked the plane for his private purposes). He was judged and sent to penalty [infantry] battalion to the frontline. There he fought one combat and, according to law, rehabilitated himself this way.

What do you appeal to?


>Of course, it caused some disproportions, obvious when the one takes in mind that those subjects were not existent for a half of century. It is obvious that there was some fashion, 'Dark Blue World' being a sample of it, but it does not mean it was not the truth.
I may agree that perhaps some accounts are exagerated, that the scale was actually smaller but it does not mean that those stories were invented because of 'fahion'.


It’s great you understand some “disproportions, fashion and exaggeration” in those readings of those times. That was just I was trying to talk about.

Do you see that your initial thesis about “all pows sent to gulag” is some kind of exaggeration comparing to Marsyao’s post? Such disproportions makes a great sense and change the view absolutely. And that’s the point.


>Given the fact, the current president of Russia is originating from CheKa of many names,

I don’t like him too, at least during last three years, but not for his roots (KGB service). Although it’s a great off-topic over here and I don’t know what do you want to tell by this sentence about Putin, regarding our discussion.


>Our Russian friends usually like to show the Red Army as a liberators of Poland. Well, I can understand that they were dismantling installations in Germany, at last it was a conquered country. But why they were doing that in 'liberated' Poland? Perhaps we will hear that it was built or modernised by Germans.

Had you forgot, that SU gave Poland a vast lands of Germany? There were a lots of industry plants on former German territories, excluding those ones organized by Germans in Poland during the war.


> Perhaps. But just see what could have happened if Britons and Americans had removed every factory back to foundations in a country which suffered from 6 years of occupation and a moving front. I would not call it a friendly behaviour, do you?


Do you know that most of European part of Soviet territory, several times bigger than Poland and Germany, suffered from most destructive occupation and massive combat actions during those three years? And suffered enormous losses in that struggle, which just can’t be compared with any Ally (only with Germany)?


>PS Yes, I think it was that Golubyev. IIRC he was burned and bailed out thus becoming POW.

Negative. Just some mistake. Vasiliy Golubev wasn’t POW ever. Victor Golubev – as well wasn’t.



>Having in mind that no other valuable and scientific books are not available to Western readers due to language problems,

…And because modern studies on this subject is still not fashionable among Western publishers.


>Today, about 30 people protested by the Polish embassy in Moscow.
Reason - they negated NKVD responsibility for Katyn Massacre and accusted Soviet government, that in 1988-1991 they prepared false documents proving Soviet guilt.
Reputedly they have documents and witnesses claiming about 8000 Polish POWs worked on 26 June 1941 building a Minsk-Moscow highway.
Among protesters was Yuriy Mukhin, a publicist, often quoted by Russians in historical discussions.


>Draw your own conclusions, what is a fashion and what is not.

As Mazila stated it’s just a pile of modern commi. And over here Mukhin regarded as unserious, politically-biassed writer (like Rezun, Beshanov and many more).

You better look at what happens in Paris now.


>It was so wild and inhumane, that it is hard to compare it with anything.

Let me guess… May be Nazi one, or Pol-Pot?

At least we see in this discussion that not every pow was sent to gulag. Not bad. Although I hope we won’t dissipate all your prejudicies on TOCH board.

>There were several important figures in aviation, like Galitzine, Rozanoff or Sikorski, who are remembered by Britons, French or Americans but not Russians. Why? Because they were not members of VKP(b)?

Rubbish. Every aviation enthusiast know them over here and a number of books was published, and every aviation periodical has a column dedicated to pre-1918 period.


>Perhaps Western or Polish view of Russia and Soviet Union is distorted, definetelly it is exagerrated, but I have no doubt that it is still closer to the truth.

Doesn’t matter is it distorted by former Soviet views or former and modern “west” views. It’s just distorted.

“The truth is out here” (c).

P.S. It was a surprise to read your racist post. Really surprising words from such “western” liberal like you. Just another brick in a wall of Polish views on history.

BTW, Grabowskiy – is rather jewish-like name over here.