Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Nole
36 F-86
4 F-84
1 F-80
1. Total of MiGs destroyed :35. We have there a difference of 42 MiGs; 42 KPAFAC MiGs destroyed in June 1953? Ummmm...
USAF and UN
2. 3 F9F Panthers(VF-153, VF-91 and VF-111)
Four of this F-86 had high possibilities of be victims of MiGs:
3. 51-2838 (51th FIG, 25th FIS)Separated from flight in bad weather, no radio contact, pilot Fl Lt John E.Y.King(RAF)MIA, Jun 4, 1953.(F-86E-10)(PLAAF)
4. 51-2762 (51th FIG, 16th FIS)Operational, engine exploded, bailed out over mouth of Yalu River, pilot FlLt James A.Ryan rescued, Jun 5, 1953.(F-86E-10)
5. 52-4339 (18th FBG, 12th FBS)Downed by AAA, pilot Capt Robert A.Coury POW, Jun 10, 1953.(F-86F-30)
6. 51-2832 (51th FIG, 25th FIS)Hit by gnd fire while leading 4 F-86s, bailed out successfully approx 6 mi SE of Cholsan, pilot LtCol John C. Giraudo POW, Jun 16, 1953.(F-86E-10)
7. The F-84s, difficult to say, officialy 4 were shot down by AAA , but also we have there a "Flame out" and other a " Faded from ground scope during night armed reconnaissance mission".
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1. Besides KPAAF losses, there's no source I know of which 'ties in' month by month losses of the PLAAF to their total figure. It's well known that PLAAF individual accounts have appeared quoting losses in particular actions, sub-periods or units, then later accounts have quoted higher losses. So I wouldn't take PLAAF losses as a complete known as of now. OTOH I'd assume the Soviet ones reported in say Seidov's book are probably close to what the records say (not necessarily the same, for the early part of the war they aren't quite the same, he seems to omit a few, for this period I haven't obtained complete Soviet records in order to say). The overall claim accuracy rate of F-86's was apparently around 75% (just counting actual enemy losses against 'destroyed' credits, giving no weight to 'probable' or 'damaged'). That would imply around 58 actual MiG losses, but the accuracy might have been lower in that particular period. If the real loss was in the 40's, that's still hardly shocking overclaim by WWII standards. In fact some accounts imply that the 5th AF standard for awarding victories from gun camera images was loosened near the end of the war, but I'd say we still don't have the data for this period to make a firm determination about F-86 claim accuracy.
2. I started my detailed Korean War air combat research reviewing every historical report of every USN and USMC F9F squadron v detailed MiG claims, because I was so interested in the thesis that many F-84 and F-80 credits to MiG's actually represented F9F's, which Seidov for example puts forth. But it was quite rare. F9F's encountered MiG's just 11 times in the war. No other cases even suggest the possiblity F9F's came under MiG attack without realizing it. The times and places don't match MiG claims. There were no encounters between MiG's and F9F's in June 1953. The last were on March 26 of that year when PLAAF MiG's encountered both VMF-115 and -311 with no actual victories. The only Soviet victory credits for F-80/F-84's where the targets were actually F9F's, all of which were overclaims, occurred in November 1950 (several encounters), Oct 25 1951; April 30 and August 20 1952. The only F9F actually downed by a MiG was among 7 credits for F-94's Jul 21 1951 (no F-94's or other US a/c were present). An F9F v. MiG encounter reported by VMF-311 Sept 25 1951 doesn't correspond to any MiG claim AFAIK, and the USSR based MiG's which encountered F9F's Nov 18 1952 apparently knew they were engaging USN a/c.
3. "Daily Korean Resume" No. 109 says for June 4 "No enemy jets were sighted airborne or engaged F-86's during the period, as the weather continued poor". The loss was reported as weather related. What is your source for a PLAAF claim for that particular day? AFAIK there weren't any.
4. This loss is documented in records in several places as 'not due to enemy action', but in a first hand account a crewman on the SA-16 (Abatross amphibian) which rescued Ryan recalled the British pilot saying he was a downed by a MiG. I haven't obtained the same highly detailed daily USAF encounter reports for '53 as earlier years which might make this clearer. I rate it 'possibly MiG'.
5. This was pretty clearly a AAA loss IMO. It's in the records as AAA loss in grid square 'CT' well south of the Pyongyang-Wonsan line in which MiG activity was rare, especially later in the war. Coury described it in detail both in "Prisoners of a Forgotten War Remembered" written many years later, as well as in his then-classified POW debriefing interview in 1953.
6. Similar to 5, CT grid box AAA loss per the reports of the day, and Giraudo's POW debrief was quite specific about the circumstances. Also the time on this one is known, 0927 I, and the MiG v F-86 combats of that day were in the afternoon.
Another case which is more plausibly a possible MiG loss than either no's 3, 5 or 6 above IMO is 52-2855 which was reported as an engine failure loss in the MiG Alley area of NK on a day with MiG claims, June 19. However I wouldn't conclude so without further evidence, again I need more detailed encounter reports for 1953.
7. The disappearance of F-84G 51-10385, ('faded from scope') Jun 10, appears to correspond to a night fighter claim of the 298th IAP. BTW the 298th also claimed a B-29 and a B-26 that month.
In November 1950, a month I've researched in a lot of detail on both sides (I've studied the late period of the war in less detail, so far) the Soviets awarded credits for 29 US a/c and actually downed 1 outright (a B-29) and caused another to crashland, destroyed (an RB-29). Their general overclaim rate was not that high, but crediting 41 a/c in June '53 and only actually downing 2 (F-86 and F-84) is not unbelievable IMO. It doesn't mean the two questionable F-86 losses *must* have been MiG losses, and no other losses plausibly were, IMO, based on the evidence I know.
Joe