[RodM]

Hi Thor,

according to 'Summary of Aircraft Lost or Damaged on Operations, No. 51', the ORS wrote the the following cause by hand against LM472, originally simply listed as missing - "m/g fire from Lanc". (source: The National Archives, AIR 14/3460).

My understanding of this is that the BC ORS endeavoured to establish, where possible, the cause of loss for every aircraft destroyed on operations. At the end of the war, Loss of Bomber Aircraft questionnaires were circulated to returning PoWs and the answers to these questionnaires, in combination with other evidence, was used to establish the causes of loss, which were added the the Summaries by hand.

While the actual Loss of Bomber Aircraft questionnaires, if still preserved, are most certainly classified (because they have not been released to The National Archives), a seperate questionnaire, completed by F/O Knight RAAF, the sole survivor of LM472, states "2 starboard engines and wing set on fire from another aircraft (sic). Aircraft exploded about 2 minutes later" and "1) Aircraft was set on fire by fire from another aircraft." Knight also indicates that the fire started at 17,000 feet and the explosion of the aircraft at 10,000 ft. (source: Australian War Memorial, AWM54/ 779/3/129: PoW and Internees - Examinations and Interrogations: Statements by repatriated or released Prisoners of War (RAAF) taken at No 11 PDRC, Brighton, England, 1945)

From the Casualty files of W/O Collins RAAF, a letter from the OC 101 Sqdn to 1 Group HQ states: "This aircraft was the only one missing from this attack which took place in 10/10 cloud, tops 4000 ft. Flak was described as moderate in barrage form. No crew reported seeing any aircraft in trouble but 101/K reported whilst in target area at 2238.5 hours that a parachute was seen descending some 4000 ft below them." From the Casualty File of P/O Hart RAAF, the MRES Investigation Report states: "At about 2330 hours (sic) on the 15th January (sic), several formations of aircraft were observed over GEILSDORF, flying in a westerly direction. Some minutes later a single, burning aircraft (believed to have been hit by Flak) was seen approaching the village. It crashed at 800 metres South-West of the village. Seven members of the crew were killed; the eighth, Sgt. KNIGHT, R.A.A.F., was injured and taken to the Military Hospital in PLAUEN." (sources: A705 Casualty Files, National Archives of Australia)

The crash site at Geilsdorf, would be roughly at 50 Deg 25' 20' N; 12 Deg 01' 42" E. This would suggest that the aircraft was lost on the second last leg into the target, although the statement above from the MRES Investigation Report would suggest the aircraft was on the first homeward leg out of the target (but well north of the intended track). It should be kept in mind that witness statements obtained by the MRES were sometimes taken 2-3 years after the event.

Unfortunately, no Form Z for 1 Group for the night of 16-17 January 1945 appears to have been preserved at TNA. The attached PDF contains the relevant details from the 5 Group Form Z (source: AIR 14/3227, The National Archives).

Unfortunately, nothing conclusive can be garnered from the Form Z (I've highlighted the entries for aircraft seen to be shot down). The only claim was over Brux, and it is difficult, if not impossible to know if any crew reported firing upon a Lancaster during the Brux raid because the fact may not have been transmitted in the Form Z or could've been a 1 Group aircraft, where the Form Z isn't preserved. The BC ORS plotted the sightings of aircraft seen destroyed from the 5 Group Form Z on a large map as a part of it's analysis. The two closest reports in terms of distance from the crash site of LM472 are the 22.10 report of a fighter seen shot down some considerable distance to port (which, on the outward leg by the Brux raiders could relate to an incident during the Zeitz raid further to the north) and the 22.23 report of a 4-engined a/c seen on fire off the port bow; this sighting being made some 50 km to the N.E. of where LM472 came down. It is possble that none of the sightings reported by 5 Group relate to LM472.

Thus, nothing I've presented here gives any indication on why the BC ORS chose to classify the loss of LM472 as friendly fire, although I would suspect that they had some evidence to reach such a conclusion.

In terms of there being a German night fighter claim being identified, would you mind sharing the details? I have a reasonably comprehensive, although incomplete list of claims, and none of them point to LM472.

Cheers

Rod