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Old 28th September 2006, 02:51
Rob Romero Rob Romero is offline
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Percentage of Verifiable Victories of Various Aces –Revisions

CAVEAT: I’ve started what I think is an interesting and potentially important thread: While I recognize this endeavor will be imperfect (in some cases highly), it may provide a SENSE of the actual success of various aces. Hopefully, it will expand and eventually (perhaps WELL into the future) provide us with a fairly comprehensive and reliable database. I am relying on the contributions of others and cannot vouch for the accuracy of submissions –I am relying on the web community to keep tabs and bring debatable data to light. Perhaps in cases of great controversy, a range could be established (i.e., pilot X claimed 100 aircraft and the documents/records STRONGLY SUGGEST he shot down 40 with another 30 Possible and of these ‘Official’ Victories 10 were really only Damaged etc. and 5 were Phantom (No Historical Basis) Claims).


So far the results reflect well on Jasta 11 –it seems the unit maintains an exceptional degree of integrity in making –and bestow even further credit on their ‘meister’ Manfred von Richthofen. This contrasts with a liberal outlook on claiming, allegedly taken by some JGs in WWII. Perhaps this is due to MvR’s mantra to “Bring them down burning!” rather than just shoot them down.

MvR’s Jasta 11 ‘Bloody April’ 1917 Boys
33 of 33 Claims (100.0%) Kurt Wolff *
30 of 30 Claims (100.0%) Karl Allmenröder *
74 of 80 Claims ( 92.5%) Manfred von Richthofen
25 of 30 Claims ( 83.3%) Karl-Emil Schäfer
33 of 40 Claims ( 82.5%) Lothar von Richthofen
195 of 213 Claims ( 91.5%) WOW! OFF THE CHARTS!

I’m a bit perturbed by the low percentages attained by such legendary figures as Udet and Bölcke –any explanations?



WWI Aces
74 of 80 Claims ( 92.5%) Manfred von Richthofen
46 of 48 Claims ( 95.8%) Werner Voss
35 of 36 Claims ( 97.2%) Francesco Baracca - KIA 19 Jun 1918
33 of 33 Claims (100.0%) Kurt Wolff *
33 of 40 Claims ( 82.5%) Lothar von Richthofen
32 of 45 Claims ( 71.1%) Fritz Rumey
31 of 57 Claims ( 54.4%) James McCudden (Possibly 36 of 57 Claims 63.2%)
30 of 30 Claims (100.0%) Karl Allmenroder *
30 of 62 Claims ( 48.4%) Ernst Udet
27 of 54 Claims ( 50.0%) Erich Lowenhardt
25 of 44 Claims ( 56.8%) Rudolf Berthold
25 of 48 Claims ( 52.0%) Josef Jacobs
24 of 44 Claims ( 54.5%) Bruno Loerzer
28 of 31 Claims ( 90.3%) Paul Billik
26 of 28 Claims ( 92.9%) Friedrich von Roth
25 of 30 Claims ( 83.3%) Karl Schaefer
23 of 40 Claims ( 57.5%) Oswald Boelcke
22 of 43 Claims ( 51.2%) Paul Baumer
17 of 17 Claims (100.0%) Edmund Nathanael (German-Jewish Ace)

14 of 22 Claims ( 63.6%) Hermann Göring (Possibly 15 of 22 Claims 68.2%)
14 of 15 Claims ( 93.3%) Max Immelmann (2-3 additional Verifed Victories)
11 of 40 Claims ( 27.5%) Franz Buchner
?? of 72 Claims Billy Bishop (Ooops did I jus open a can of worms?!?) ;-)
What about Voss guys –that should be easy for those of you who have Franks’ book.

WWII Aces
??? of 101 Claims Josef ‘Pips’ Priller -largely verified by Johnnie Johnson (38)
100 of 151 Claims (~66.2%) Hans-Joachim Marseille (158) 151 Afrika + 7 Battle of Britain
~80 of 352 Claims (~22.7%) Erich Hartmann –Ace of Aces? –based on claims of Russian Researcher
25 of 40 Claims ( 62.5%) Richard Bong USAAF PTO Ace of Aces.
21 of 28 Claims ( 75.0%) Gabby Gabreski USAAF ETO Ace of Aces
15 of 64 Claims ( 23.4%) Saburo Sakai –top scoring surviving IJNAF ace
9 of 31 Claims ( 29%) Heinz Knocke (–research continuing @ heinzknokewebsite.com)

Also does anyone have a sense of Walter Schuck (206) Hermann Graf (212) and Alfred Grislawski (133) verifyable victories from Christer Bergström’s recent cross referenced works?


INSTRUCTIONS: TO MAKE THIS PROCESS EASIER, PLEASE COPY THIS CHART AND THEN MAKE YOUR ADDITIONS/CORRECTIONS IN THE FORMAT ALREADY USED. IF YOU STONGLY DISAGREE WITH ANOTHER POSTER, PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE THEIR CALCULATION, BUT RATHER PASTE YOUR REVISED FIGURES BENEATH AS A BASIS FOR FURTHER RESEARCH/DEBATE –THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS!


Laurent Rizzotti’s DECIMAL SYSTEM:

Claims can also be divided into three categories (this applies mainly to large scale fights in WWII):

1) Verified: the Target is Identified and Went Down, or the Unit is Identified and has as many losses than the claims of its opponent.
2) Uncertain: Target not identified, at least one loss known but more claims than losses.
3) Invalid: the target is identified, or his unit, and wasn't destroyed though perhaps damaged

When you have one side claim 70 victories and shooting down 50 aircraft, you will probably have something like 10 valide claims and 60 Uncertain ones.

A method to try to get closer to the real score of WWII pilots will be to use the US method of using fractions for claims.

For example, in the above case, the 10 pilots having claimed identified targets (location and time corresponding, away from the main battle and so on) will be given full credit (1 claim = 1 victory) and the 60 other claims, corresponding to the remaining 40 losses, will be valued each 40/60 = 0.666 victory... This is as close as you can get in many cases.


THE DECIMAL SYSTEM MUST REMAIN AS AS SUB-CATEGORY TO VERIFIED CLAIMS –EXAMPLE BELOW

31 of 57 Claims ( 54.4%) James McCudden (Possibly 36 of 57 Claims 63.2%)



-Thanks Barrett for the sizeable contribution. A few years ago there was a lot of controversy concerning Hartmann’s Mustang claims –some people scoffing at them. However this view has evolved. The following is a copied post concerning :

Erich Hartmann's
victories over 4 USAAF P-51 Mustangs on June 24, 1944. The Mustangs were escorting B-17's on a mission to bomb Ploesti.


All 4 P-51 are confirmed.
Hartmann's Staffel shot down 6 P-51 including 4 Hartman's
It were 2 P-51B and 1 P-51C from 52 FG at:
9:40 Lt .Fisher
9:45 Lt. Robinett
1:00 Lt. Burwell
Propably Burwell and Robinett were shot down by Hartmann
Then they meet 4 P-51 from 325 FG and shot down 3 of them including 2 Hartmann's kills.
P-51s Pilots :
Lt. Mueller
Lt. Osterhus
Lt. Hanson
This Info is from excellent polish book "Elita Luftwaffe" (by Robert Michulec)










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