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Old 31st August 2006, 10:49
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: VVS Statistical Digest funy discution, :-)

Hi
Thanks for some discution, which begins to look nice and funy, :-)

Yes Bernard you are right about about 672 Rumanian military planes and total about 1500 - in all - which means any kind of wood and metal, which could fly/took off from the ground. This is not a joke.

Resarching the subject of air power in WW II (also in Soviet Russia) for many years I am observing, and undrestanding for me, manipulation very commmon and often used by Soviet-Russia authors.
Shortly they put as a military power (many, many books) only this air forces, which were for example gathered on Western Military District and if it was only servicable planes (flyable) - nonservisable were not included.
In thses datas are sometimes removed planes from next military district, training, civil (GVF/"Aeroflot" - which was transport aviation since June 1941), yought training avition (mostly U-2, UT-2, UT-1, R-5 ect.) and at last but not least NKWD avition "police"/border unit (small but also air forces).

Soviet presenting data about military potential of Romania, Finland, Hungary, ect. very, very often are presenting whole enemy flying/air power (no matter if it was comabt or not combat planes, used on the front). In their statictc tese small air forces look very, very big, and dangerous (as Denes had mentioned Romanian 672 or in all 1500 planes - terrible might of Romanian "military air power" these 1500 planes. Great could say some Russians).

In fact, in combat were used on 22 VI 1941 quite smaller parts, only the most military valuables planes - these 253 in all and 205 servisable ready to take off on 22 VI over Soviet targets - from all 672 miliatry planes servisable/non-servsable. You should also rembert this factor too, not all thses planes took off on 22 VI.
This is important factor (if concerning to power of Romanian Avition) presented/showed in Bernard Denes book about ARR. Such military planes as PZL P.11, P.24, bomber PZL P.23 were not at all used on military mission on 22 VI (later during the war of course were). In fact their real combat value of fighter P.11, 24, bomber P.23 were very low as on summer 1941. Soviet/Russian authors couned them as "similar value" with Me 109 shwoing total Romanian fighter power in own statistic.

In presenting own military power Soviets/Russian have own logic/statistic data, which are not full and complet. Mostly they are using to show power of aviation regiments, without independend air units (there were tens of such independnt escadrils), no show the power of civil air forces, or training school ect. This way, they cutting out quite many flying military potential.

On June 1941 the whole military power of VVS RKKA, not including - NKWD units (small air force of about 300-400 planes or so) and GVF/"Aeroflot" and other civil - had about 24,500 military planes, in whole Soviet Russia (total, including training aviaion, laison ect.).

In general one may said, that Soviet had the air force of about 32.000-32.100 in all flying planes on June 1941 in whole Soviet. From this air power of about 11-13.000, where gathered on 5 Western military district, to be used in Soviet sudden attack on Germany planed on June later on July 1941.
For example in Kiev Special Miliatry District were about 2.060 military planes of which were about 1760 servicable + at least next about 130 were of GVF/"Aerofłot".
From Sovit's statistic are also excluded planes captured during Russian invasion on Poland in 1939 and later invasion on Baltic states. There were a few hundreds captured Polish plane in KSMD (servicable and notservicable - in 1939 (PWS-26, RWD-8, Potez XXV ect.) on Lvov Stanislavov ect airfields.

This should be remembered because, when German very fast captured tens of Soviet assoult airfields, they did not make any difference among captured planes and counted all, what did they find there and were destroyed by German sudden pre-emptive attack on 22 VI 1941.


Summary
When one man wants to show any statistic data could be nice if he/she shows similar standarised values figures for the both side. If he/ she shows on one side semi-true, not full data and compare this with oversized, not credible data of second side, we can not have any true and valuable informatuion about military picture of fighting powers.

Soviet/Russians are "loving" to hide own real power/potentail to minimalise their real military power and oversized enemy figures. Such historical statistic data manipulation/politicy were done over 50 years, almost to the 90-ties. Now we can meet this similar semi-true figures in some works, also printed on the West. Look at - for example - to well know, for some of you, "Black Cross and Red Stars vol. 1".

To marsyao - Data of air powers on 22 VI 1941. Sorry: Finland. Hungary, Slovak, Croat, Spain, Italy conducted no any air war on 22 VI 1941 over Soviet. When one man add this figures for this perticular day, this is total nonsens, and obvious historical/political data's manipulation.

Soviet/Russian also do not presnts data from other miliatry distric like Moscow, Transcaucasian ect., and this is OK for you? Strange Soviet logic/rethoric? In these tables there are lack of data about other air forces fighting on the Eastern Front.


Regards,
Mirek Wawrzynski

PS.
In my work edited in Poland ("Dzien Armagedonu - uprzedzenie "Czerwonego Blizkriegu vol. 1, 2" in: Militaria i Fakty no 4(25)/2004 and 1(26)/2005). I have put these information about Soviet military power on June 1941 in 5 Western Military District, explaining exactly this figures and giving figures for VVS RKKA air military potential. Text only in Polish, no English.
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