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Old 2nd March 2005, 17:51
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christer Bergström
What was even worse - from the German POV - was that already the first combat caused the German unit to get dispersed into twos or threes - hence the American observation which I quoted earlier: “enemy aircraft were sighted . . . mostly Me 109s and Fw 190s in twos and threes”.
It was rather unability of German pilots to keep in formation. Exactly the same comments were done by Hungarian Stuka pilots flying in Southern Poland at the time.

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I found the request strange, but since Franek wanted to see such a case, I gave him a row of even worse cases in the “Luftwaffe Aces KIA in Normandy” thread (25 German fighters versus twelve hundred US fighters and bombers, 10 German fighters versus 524 US fighters at Chartres) - only because he wondered if there ever were such cases.
You did not prove anything I asked for. Strenght of Allied formation performing a single operation was tremendous and included apart of extra fighter sweeps also reconnaisance, pathfinder, elint and ASR aircraft if flown over sea. It does not mean that they were all present at one place. It was a standard procedure for close escort to disperse in sections of three or four along the bomber stream. In effect your figures are just only stats or big lies.

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I can understand that if one limits his study to only Allied accounts on the unit level - together with a tendency to dismiss any German account on the simple grounds that it is a German account - the perspective of the huge Allied numerical superiority which you describe, Nick, is diminished.
I have checked all available (to me) accounts of both sides as well as documents and books for my article covering D+1 operations of 133 Wing. I admit I have not get through diaries and combat reports of every Allied unit flying that day as it was only a 'short' article. Nonetheless I think it is a representative work with a little marigin of error. How many documents and accounts have you cross checked before drawing your conclusions presented here?

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Many accounts and combat reports start with “together with my flight, I attacked. . .”
Basic principle of aircombat that fully evolved in 1930s, mostly due to availability of radio sets, was that there is no more individual dog-fight but only team effort.

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Often, the pilots who gave the combat report didn’t mention the presence of other friendly fighters, because that wasn’t entirely relevant. And often they simply were not aware of the fact that another fighter group had bounced these German planes ten minutes previously, and ten minutes afterward, a third fighter group would bounce those unfortunate Germans one more time - followed maybe by a fourth fighter group, unbeknown to the other three, another ten minutes later.
What was not clear then, becomes apparent today. Having claims, times and locations it is easy to ascertain if it was a single German formation bounced by several Allied units. This was not the case of units engaged by Poles (and Brits of 129 Sqn) on 7 June 1944.

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Yes, Nick, this is the reality of the air war over Normandy, as you correctly mention was noted in German radio messages intercepted by Ultras. As always, it is necessary to study reports from both sides, and treat both sides equally seriously, in order to arrive at a picture which is as close as possible to the reality.
In case of Normandy, wireless and Ultra intercepts are almost useless for research of combats that occured there. Ultra is great to prepare a general view of situation not available from (lost) German sources.
Christer, have you ever seen any Allied war diaries or combat reports? I assume you did not because of the nonsense you spread here. I cannot take seriously an account of a German pilot claiming his formation was attacked by 150+ Thunderbolts when it is apparent only a single Squadron of Mustangs was engaged at the place and location. But I am happy to have it because there are almost no German accounts for the period.
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