Wing coding Bf110 and in general

[carlmu]

From pictures showing the Bf110 from below, many, but not all, show a letter lateral to the Balkenkreuz. As far as I can see, this letter is the third of the four in the code marking. So, if this letter is say K, the fuselage coding would be **-K*?
Not very familiar with the code letter system, I do not know why not all planes had this underwing letter. If the wing had this letter, was the letter the same on both sides?

[Evgeny Velichko]

Fuselage:

??+K?, means it is 11th aircraft in the Staffel (squadron)

On the wings (under and over), simular on the both sides:

(wingtip) K+ (fuselage) +K (wingtip)

[carlmu]

Evgeny!
Many thanks for the reply, appreciate it!
Carl

[Fernando Estanislau]

The third letter on the fuselage should be in the wing tip, also on upper surfaces. Later they were progressively removed, in some cases here and there even from the lower wing surfaces.

However, be careful. It is not uncommon to see aircraft which retained the original Stammkenzeichen (factory codes) under the wings, but had them overpainted on fuselage by the unit letters.

So, if you see a letter on the wing tip, it is possible but not 100% certain it is on fuselage. It could be the first (starboard side) or fourth (portside) Stammkenzeichen letter. The image attached illustrates the point.



Best regards.

[carlmu]

Mant thanks, Fernando!
Let turn the question: IF the underwing letter toward the wing tip can be read, will the third letter on the fuselage be the same? The reason for asking is the plane of Erich Groth. In the German vermisst list the plane is coded M8+TC, the letter T however is written with pencil and must be added later, not machine typed as the rest is. The attached photo is from Pori in Finland 4 days before Groth and his Bordfunker were killed in a crash in the moutains in Hallingdal in Norway 12. August 1941. As can be seen from the picture, the left underwing letter is K. So, when the letter 1,2 and 4 is known, the coding must read M8+KC?

[Evgeny Velichko]

Carl:

??+K? could be a part of factory code, not unit code. Unit code, as well as I know, was M8+TC.

[Fernando Estanislau]

My thoughts are exactly as Evgeny's. If you knew the W.Nr. (serial number) of this plane, maybe you could locate the proper Stammkenzeichen letters and verify if they match...

Another possibility is the aircraft coming from another pilot, maybe a previous M8+KC, for example (?)

[carlmu]

I am trying to convince those who say this plane had the code M8+TC on the fuselage instead of what I believe should read M8+KC. To my knowledge, the only "proof" for the code M8+TC comes from the Vermisst list and is probably as wrong as the crash site in the same list. According to the Vermisst list the plane crashed near Kirkenes. The plane war on its way to Kirkenes, but never arrived there, and in fact crashed 2000 km farther south.
The plane is imaged in Pori on 08.08.1941 with a K under the left wing near to the tip. The Finns filled up the plane with 87 octane fuel and oil, which is shown in the fuel log from Pori and the plane is there logged as M8+KC.
By the way, the plane's Werk No was 3863.
On differenet pictures from Pori and also from Sweden in summer 1941, all the fuselage letters except letter no 3 can be read.
So from the arguments above, which fuselage code is the most probable?

[Fernando Estanislau]

It seems that the image of the third letter on fuselage exists:

http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/fodalen.html

It would be nice to analyze a better sample of the photography.

[carlmu]

Fernando!
The image you refer to is one of those taken in Pori 08.08.1941. The third letter you mean is C, is in fact not letter no 3 but no 4. I have got hold of this photo as high resolution TIF file, and when I blow it up, the letter no 3, which in fact is (VOILA!) K pops up. Very faint, but visible. I can't understand why this hasn't been seen before. Maybe because the letter stands little out from the camouflage paint. If you are interested, I can blow up the picture and cut out the Balkenkreuz with the the two last letter and post it here.
With this I think it is proven that Erich Groths plane was coded M8+KC