Polish Mustang PK-E, 315 Sqd

[Bergen]

Can anyone help with info regarding this:

10 Nov. Mustang III FB391 (PK-E) F/Sgt A. Ciundziewicki KIA Escort. Shot down by a flakship near Norwegian coast.

[RSwank]

You might find a little more on these links.

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...-for-Finn-Buch

http://www.polishsquadronsremembered...315Losses.html

In the book "RAF Mustang and Thunderbolt Aces" by Andrew Thomas, on pages 37 -38 he writes:

"The strike squadrons that Coastal Command employed interdicting shipping of the coasts of Occupied Europe had done so largely unescorted, and had suffered significant losses to enemy fighters as a result, especially off the coasts of Norway and Denmark. The arrival of the Mustang III meant that the means to redress this deficiency was now available, and it resulted in the transfer of No 315 Sqn to Peterhead, on the northeast coast of Scotland in November 1944."

"One of its early operations came on the 7 November when seven Liberators were escorted to the Norwegian coast. Flt Sgt Ciundziewicki was lost when he went down to strafe a boat."

Although the book gives the date as 7 NOV, this seems to be the same incident.

[Peter S]

Definitely 10 November.

" H (PK-H) F/O G.(Gwido) Swistun 13.25 - 17.20
E (PK-E) F/S A. (Antoni) Ciundziewicki 13.25-16.00

2 Mustangs IIIs of this squadron took off on patrol off the coast of NORWAY (20 miles) according to plan to protect Coastal Command A.V. Patrol 7 LIBERATORS flying at 1000 ft, according to plan. At about 15.50 hours flying a Southerly course F/S CIUNDZIEWICKI, flying on the port side, spotted (which at first he thought was a U.boat, in position 60°.020N - 05°12E) and went to investigate, but identified same as a tug towing a barge, steering in a Westerly direction. He attacked and when pulling out, moderate, heavy ACK,ACK was experienced from position 60°020N - 05°17E. Shortly afterwards intense light flak was experienced from position 60°00N -05°05E. Against the Section Leader's orders this gun position was attacked by the above mentioned pilot and when pulling out he reported to his Section Leader that he had been hit. The Section Leader noticed the pilot's aircraft in flames and ordered him to bale out or take a Westerly course. No reply was received and shortly afterwards the plane was seen crashing in flames in approx. position 60°00N - 05°00E. No parachute was observed. Approx. time 16.00 hours . WEATHER as above."

[FrankieS]

Baugher says:
42-103541 to RAF May 1944 as Mustang III FB391. Missing Nov 11, 1944

[Peter S]

Originally Posted by FrankieS

Baugher says:
42-103541 to RAF May 1944 as Mustang III FB391. Missing Nov 11, 1944

Definitely 10th

[Bergen]

Thanks for the replies.

PeterS
Is this from the ORB from 315 ?

RSwank
Do you know that squadron the Liberators where from ? What was their mission ?
Are there any resource which holads account of all Polish losses at the norwegian coast ?

Thanks again

[Bergen]

Originally Posted by Peter S

Definitely 10 November.

" H (PK-H) F/O G.(Gwido) Swistun 13.25 - 17.20
E (PK-E) F/S A. (Antoni) Ciundziewicki 13.25-16.00

2 Mustangs IIIs of this squadron took off on patrol off the coast of NORWAY (20 miles) according to plan to protect Coastal Command A.V. Patrol 7 LIBERATORS flying at 1000 ft, according to plan. At about 15.50 hours flying a Southerly course F/S CIUNDZIEWICKI, flying on the port side, spotted (which at first he thought was a U.boat, in position 60°.020N - 05°12E) and went to investigate, but identified same as a tug towing a barge, steering in a Westerly direction. He attacked and when pulling out, moderate, heavy ACK,ACK was experienced from position 60°020N - 05°17E. Shortly afterwards intense light flak was experienced from position 60°00N -05°05E. Against the Section Leader's orders this gun position was attacked by the above mentioned pilot and when pulling out he reported to his Section Leader that he had been hit. The Section Leader noticed the pilot's aircraft in flames and ordered him to bale out or take a Westerly course. No reply was received and shortly afterwards the plane was seen crashing in flames in approx. position 60°00N - 05°00E. No parachute was observed. Approx. time 16.00 hours . WEATHER as above."

So if I understand this right, this is the witnessaccount reported by F/S Swistun and is to be found in the ORB of 315 Sqd ?

Further there would be of great interest to excact find out what the mission was. Were where those Liberators going, what mission or target did they have ?

Any personal information about Antoni Ciundziewicki ?
Number of sorties, victories etc
Was he married ?, any living relatives ?

Thanks again
Bergen

[SteveB]

Hi Peter and other posters

I realise that this intervention may not be entirely helpful but it seems to me that it would be really helpful if somebody could find out which Liberator sqn was involved and what is the record of their operations for that day. I have been unsure about the events as recorded in 315Sqn ORB since the last time this incident appeared on one of the forums.

On 10Nov44 315Sqn flew four overlapping patrols each of two a/c and taking off at 55/50 minute intervals. The first was 1140-1540; the second 1235-1625; the third 1325-1720 and the fourth 1415-1755. So, for whatever it is worth, the first patrol had not returned before the last patrol took off.

It seems to me that it is likely that the Liberators were airborne for all of this period from 1140-1755. In the 315Sqn ORB all four reports describe the task, in different levels of detail, as "protect Coastal Command A.V. Patrol 7 LIBERATORS flying at 1000 ft".

There are at least two things I don't understand. I am not well-versed in Coastal Command operations, but I don't think I have ever been aware of CC a/c apparently operating in such a large formation? It would have produced one hell of a radar response. Where I have looked at CC sqn ORBs then usually they record just single a/c operating on any patrol. If the (slower) Liberators were operating at such a low altitude and so close to the Norwegian coast why was there an escort of only two a/c when usually at least 8 and often 12 a/c would be put up to escort Beaufighters or Mosquitos? If JG5 has responded how would two a/c protect seven Liberators?

Steve

[Bergen]

Originally Posted by SteveB

Hi Peter and other posters

I realise that this intervention may not be entirely helpful but it seems to me that it would be really helpful if somebody could find out which Liberator sqn was involved and what is the record of their operations for that day. I have been unsure about the events as recorded in 315Sqn ORB since the last time this incident appeared on one of the forums.

On 10Nov44 315Sqn flew four overlapping patrols each of two a/c and taking off at 55/50 minute intervals. The first was 1140-1540; the second 1235-1625; the third 1325-1720 and the fourth 1415-1755. So, for whatever it is worth, the first patrol had not returned before the last patrol took off.

It seems to me that it is likely that the Liberators were airborne for all of this period from 1140-1755. In the 315Sqn ORB all four reports describe the task, in different levels of detail, as "protect Coastal Command A.V. Patrol 7 LIBERATORS flying at 1000 ft".

There are at least two things I don't understand. I am not well-versed in Coastal Command operations, but I don't think I have ever been aware of CC a/c apparently operating in such a large formation? It would have produced one hell of a radar response. Where I have looked at CC sqn ORBs then usually they record just single a/c operating on any patrol. If the (slower) Liberators were operating at such a low altitude and so close to the Norwegian coast why was there an escort of only two a/c when usually at least 8 and often 12 a/c would be put up to escort Beaufighters or Mosquitos? If JG5 has responded how would two a/c protect seven Liberators?

Steve

Thanks Steve, this would be great to get more information on.

ATCCbengt
Great info, thanks alot. It could have been interesting to see what the situation for JG5 at Herdla was at this date. Do you have any info ?

Andy Bird
Great book, it seems to be a good read. I guess you are the author of this, and have researched it well. What sources is it that has given this info ?
I am a bit puzzled about some of your description, because it seems to be a bit narrative and dramatic and gives a lot of details of the last minutes of the flight ?

Yours
Bergen

[Peter S]

Originally Posted by Bergen

So if I understand this right, this is the witnessaccount reported by F/S Swistun and is to be found in the ORB of 315 Sqd ?


Any personal information about Antoni Ciundziewicki ?
Number of sorties, victories etc
Was he married ?, any living relatives ?

F/O Swistun. Yes, I would say so. No one else would report what was said over the radio.

Not a lot, I’m afraid.
794407
Born 15.11.1915. After Polish Campaign in Soviet captivity. Arrived in UK on 14.10.1941.
25(P)EFTS, 16(P)SFTS
11 AGS
Sept.1943 sent to 61 OTU
Jan 1944 posted to 315 “City of Deblin” Squadron

58 operational sorties (111 hours)
¾ V1 (1/2 + ¼) on 22.7.1944
Decorated with Cross of Valour with Bar

I never came across his family.