Bf109E Queries 1940

[steve sheridan]

Hi could anybody confirm the identities of the following a/c.
I have discrepancies with a/c numeral codes or Werknummer.

30.8.40 Lt Rudolf Ziegler StabII/JG54, now according to Nigel Parker's " Luftwaffe Crash Archive Vol.3" , he states Ziegler was flying W.Nr 1643 wht 5+ Whereas Prien in his " Jagdfliegerverband Vol 4-II " states W.Nr 6072 <-+
Also,
30.8.40 Oblt Hans Rath 4/JG54 W.Nr 6072 wht 6+, the same sources again differ, Prien says W.Nr 1643 wht 5+ ( who is right ? )

Again the same sources differ with Vol 4 " Luftwaffe Crash Archive "
27.9.40 Lt Heinz Geist 4/JG52 W.Nr 6245 wht 4+ , whereas Prien says wht 5+
27.9.40 Fw Franz Bogasch 4/JG52 W.Nr 5181 wht 5+, whereas Prien says wht 4+.

If anybody can clarify these incidents i would be most grateful, particularly if they have the matching NVM's to support these.
Best regs,
Steve.

[steve sheridan]

Hi, can anybody help provide the fuselage codes of the a/c posted above?
Any help would be most helpful in confirming these identities.

Best regs,
Steve.l

[ChrisS]

Hi Steve

Barbas in his II./JG 52 book Page 36 says White 5 for 'Bogusch' (?) and White 4 for 'Geiss' (?). I must say I have not found all the info in his books 100% reliable. He gives no detail on WNr.


Chris

[Peter Cornwell]

Steve,

Nobody can confirm the identities of these two aircraft. Surviving records are contradictory & do not support such positive assertions. As you already know, the GQM Returns simply record Bf109E-4 (6072) for Oberlt RATH & Bf109E-4 (1643) for Lt ZIEGLER both of II./JG54 lost as result of a collision in combat over London. The NVMs of II./JG54 further confirm that Oberlt Johann RATH of 4./JG54 lost his tail & baled out over South London (witnessed by Fw HEPPLE) while Lt Rudolf ZIEGLER (Gruppe TO) of Stab II./JG54 collided with the wreckage.

The collision occurred over the Chelsham area and both pilots were reported in their parachutes ‘north of Westerham’ in an ARP message logged at 11.52 hours. RAF Intelligence A.I.1.(k) Report 354/1940 reported RATH’s aircraft down at Ledgers Farm, Chelsham, at 11.55 hours & carrying a ‘White 6’. However, photos of the crash site prove that it came down at Fickleshole Farm which is immediately adjacent to that location. The bulk of the wreckage fell in fields near Chelsham Church while the tail fluttered down at Forty Acre Bank. It was spirited away to Broom Lodge where Mr Pill kept it for many years. Depending on which reports you wish to believe, RATH either came down in Granville Road in Limpsfield or at Meadowside in De Tillers Lane.

Similarly, A.I. 1.(k) Report 355/1940 recorded ZIEGLER, down at Oxted which is where he landed by parachute near Thrubhurst Cottages & Holland Post Office. An ARP Report provides a more accurate location of the actual crash site as ‘1/4 mile south of Layhams Farm’ and again photos confirm this as the location. ZIEGLER was highly security conscious and seems to have misled RAF Intelligence into believing he was flying ‘White 5’ probably in order to disguise his true identity as a member of the Stabsschwarm. However, this is something that should have been self-evident to A.I.1.(k) given his ID number (71121/4).

Finally, and just to muddy already murky water, a subsequent A.I.1.(g) Report No.27 dated 2.9.1940 describes Stab markings found on wreckage of the ‘Me109 crashed at Fickleshole Farm, near Chelsham’. Such markings were clearly more appropriate to ZIEGLER’s aircraft than that of RATH all of which points to even more confusion in the RAF Intelligence reporting of both crashes. Both sites have been excavated post-war but to my knowledge nothing was recovered to permit more positive identification of either machine.

[steve sheridan]

Good evening Peter, my apologies for not responding sooner but ive been totally tied up with work.
My thanks to you for responding to information regarding Rath and Ziegler, you have explained this so well, the difficulties in identifying these two a/c are much clearer to me now. I had only limited but conflicting information to work with.
Many thanks also to Chris for your help.
Best regs.
Steve.