Ju52 losses Ghisonaccia 29 September 1943

[keith A]

On this date French Spitfire Vbs of GCI/3 attacked a formation of seven Ju52/3M from III/TG2. The French claimed four destroyed and at least two severely damaged.

LW Sources indicate just two Ju52 destroyed but surely the Spitfires were able to inflict more damage than that? If not five slow-flying, relatively defenceless Ju52 escaped undamaged.

French Spitfire claims in this period are remarkably accurate (they shot down two Ar196 in this combat according to LW records, and claimed three) and therefore this seems an unusual high overclaim.

regards

Keith

[Stig Jarlevik]

Keith

In 1943 we still have both GQM and NVM reports.
There is as far as I know no reason to doubt what they say.

In my mind I can see the German formation's only solution to make an escape, dive to as low altitude as possible.
Is the time of day reported anywhere and/or the weather for that day? MAW Vol 4 has no such details.
Perhaps it was hazy over the sea?
Might be that the French misinterpreted such dives as aircraft going down to crash plus lost sight of them.

Many reason for overclaiming

Cheers
Stig

[Jim P.]

Yup. Have to agree with Stig here. My data is the same as his.

[keith A]

No details about the weather, the combats on this date were between 1630-1810, but the five French pilots of GCI/3 claimed four fell in flames and two others were seriously damaged. The French claims the formation leader was shot down, this was possibly Obltn Georg Haase and his crew, who suffer four dead and two wounded.

Of the two crews of Ju52/3m five are killed (four in one aircraft) including one pilot (Haase) and four wounded. This is an unlikely result if indeed four transports are destroyed and fall in flames and two others sustain serious damage.

It almost looks like one was destroyed and the other seriously damaged. If so this is a poor return for an attack on seven relatively defenceless transports.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

French pilots met first the Ar 196s, then the Ju 52s, so may have been short in fuel or ammunition to push the attack, and retired after a pass claiming shot down every target they attacked. For sure my sources say that after attacking the JU 52s they had almost no ammo left and were running out of gas.

French pilots reported that the Ju 52 was flying to Bastia. During this battle six other French Spitfires were attacking boats there and one was shot down by Flak, so maybe the pilots of GC I/3 did not follow the Ju 52 too close from Bastia.

It is also possible as Keith said that one aircraft was shot down in flames and another just badly damaged. Still any seriously damaged aircraft landing in Bastia on 29 September 1943 was effectively lost for the Luftwaffe as Corsica was totally evacuated in the next days.

One last remark: usual crew for Ju 52 is four, and apparently 5 German airmen were killed and 4 wounded, that is more than 2 crew. As these Ju 52 were used to evacuate troops, it seems to me they won't carry extra men, but I can't be sure. Still it is possible that apart the two Ju 52 lost, other(s) may have been hit.

A possibiliy was that the French attack shot down in flames one Ju 52, damaged two others (one enough to be written off/abandonned in Corsica, the other having one or more casualties aboard) and scattered the others. French pilots doing one pass on the Ju 52 low over the sea probably flew too fast to remain behind them, overshoot, turned, saw one crash in flames (4 pilots thinking it was their target) and then saw only 3 Ju 52, two damaged, as the other were too low or had scattered.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

I stand corrected, I have checked my Gen.Abt 6 PDF files and found both JU 52 losses for 29 Sep 43, reported on 8 October.

Oblt Georg Haase (pilot) and his 3 crew, Fw Alexander Müller (also pilot), Fw Ernst Phllip (flight engineer) and Uffz Hans Stauder (air gunner) were all killed aboard Ju 52 WNr 6176 (100% loss), and two passengers (and not two crew) were wounded. Unit is given as III./TG 2 in loss lists, but death cards can be found on fold3 for all four men above and all belonged to 9./TG 2.
The other Ju 52 lost was the WNr 5018 (also 100% loss), also noted as III./TG 2 in loss list with two WIA (Ofw Friedrich Heckenberger and Fw Franz Knittel) and one killed, Ofw Hans Schaarschmidt (of 11./TG 2 according to his death card on fold3).

So no reason to say more than 2 Ju 52 were hit.

[edwest2]

Ju 52s were used to evacuate men and deliver paratroopers.

[keith A]

That sounds reasonable Laurent.