Halifax shot down by Russian fighters?

[Brian]

Hi guys

Is it correct that a Halifax of 148 Squadron was shot down in error by Russian fighters on the night of 4-5 August 1944? Any details?

Cheers
Brian

[Alex Smart]

Hello Brian,

Tried four times to send this by quick reply - it didn't work, got to log in again every time I was ready to post.

Anyway here I send again by regular post/reply.

They may not have been shot down by Russian Fighters, I have no idea.

JP283 missing on SD mission 3.8.44 148 Sqn.
JP294 Shot Down on SOE mission near Venice 3.8.44, 148 Sqn.

JP162 missing on SOE mission to Poland 5.8.44 148 Sqn.
JP181 missing from SOE mission to Poland 5.8.44, 1586 Flt ex 148 Sqn.
JP276 missing from SOE mission to Poland, 5.8.44 148 Sqn.

These from a quick scan of Air Brit Series Serial numbers.

All for now.
Alex

[robert]

Hi,

148 RAF Halifax JP-276 "A" shot down by night fighter Dąbrowa Tarnowska
148 RAF Halifax EB-147 "K"shot down by night fighter by Skierniewice
148 RAF Halifax JP-162 "S" shot down by Bf110 by Nowy Sącz at 01.30. According to the crew the german fighter was guided by another Halifax manned by the german crew.
148 RAF Halifax JP-181 "X" shot down by Tarnów (probably by german night fighter)
There were some accidents with soviet fighters e.g. during the night 10/11 September 1944 Liberator from the 31 SAAF piloted by Lt.Smith was unsuccessfully atacked by soviet Hurricane (at 22.25 north of Rzeszów). At many occasions the allied bombers experienced soviet AA fire.

Regards

Robert

[Chris Goss]

...and there were 4 German claims for Halifax/Lancaster/4 engined aircraft that night of which 3 were by 3/NJG 100 and one by 1/NJG 5

[Alex Smart]

Hi,

From the latest FlyPast.Briefings

Wreckage of JP276 and crews remains have been found near the town of Dabrowa Tarnowska, Poland.The 148 Sqn a/c was shot down on the night of 4th Aug 44 while dropping ammunition /supplies to the Polish Resistance.

Alex

[manshimajin]

Apologies for not being technical. Norman Davies excellent book on the Warsaw Uprising includes references to Allied aircraft (RAF I believe) being deliberately attacked and shot down by USSR forces whilst attempting to deliver supplies to the AK in Warsaw. The Soviet Union considered the Polish Army as its enemy (after all the USSR participated in the military offensive against Poland in 1939 - without any Allied repercussions unlike Germany) and it is no surprise that it considered Allied support for Polish resistance against German forces to be an 'unfriendly' act!

[Graham Boak]

Apologies for extending the political/military diversion rather than sticking to the aviation material only, but to say that the Russian invasion of Poland resulted in no Allied reaction is just plain wrong. One reaction was the delivery of aircraft to Finland to assist in their fight against Russia, with further more sizeable land forces planned, prevented only by the armistice. Plans for bombing the Russian oilfields at Baku were advanced and recce aircraft were operated in the Middle East to prepare the way - plans disrupted by the German invasion of France and hence more immediate need for the bombers.

Whether taking up arms against both Germany and Russia was a sensible thing to do can be argued, but plans to do just that were in place and progressing. That they didn't take place is due to the pressure of other events, not to lack of intention.

It should be no surprise to anyone that there are more than two sides in many conflicts, whether in Warsaw in 1944 or perhaps in Iraq 2007. However, it would be interesting to find more actual evidence, other than propaganda claims, for direct Soviet attacks on Western aircraft over Poland. Not that I rule it out on principle, quite the contrary. However, there is the need for a pinch of salt, not least regarding significant Soviet night fighter capability over the front. It has been in many peoples' interest to claim such, and few interested in hard fact.

[Franek Grabowski]

I am afraid that Davies' books cannot be considered any source for detailed info, although usually excellent read. I am awared of no aircraft downed by Soviets but a one or two attacks of aircraft recognised as Hurricanes. That said, since 1943 Soviets were actively involved in combatig Polish underground, also behind German lines.

[Jukka Juutinen]

Disruption of plans? The war was declared on Germany practically immediately on their attack on Poland. There was simply no technical reason not to follow similar declaration of war on the USSR when these invaded Poland, yet this declaration of war didn´t take place. This fact reveals that Poland was simply an excuse for the Frenchies and Brits leaving these moralists no morals at all. No wonder these governments employed die hard bolsheviks like Stafford Cripps.