German wrack from (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) in present in Poland

[KrisJG3]

Dears

My team found near Stettin wrack of Fw-190 or Bf-109 .
We think that probably will be Bf-109 by the way we think that pilot could be from:

JG-3 Jagdgeschwader 3 - http://www.cieldegloire.com/jg_003j.php
or
SG-1 Schlachtgeschwader 1 (Stettin-Altdamm) - http://www.asisbiz.com/Luftwaffe/Sch...chwader-1.html


Fighter was crashed beetwen (germ.:Karsbach) and germ. Hinzendorf) - present in Poland.

First of all me must id type of aircraft (full details) - was a lot of versions for: FW-190 as here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_190 or Bf-109 http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109)
So it is not so easy.

After first studies we have some hypothesis:
It probably could be ( acc. to photo with name : Bock):

Bock, Hans Ofw IV(Sturm)/JG-3 Fw 190A-8 Werk # 682940 (lost 2/19/45) Fighter Operational Clasp MIA 19 February, 1945, cause and location not reported

"... In February 1945, IV./JG 3 moved to the Eastern Front, undertaking freie-Jagd and ground attack missions on the Oder front. ..."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdgeschwader_3


IV. Gruppe:
Gruppenkommandeure:

• Maj Erwin Bacsila, 5.1.45 - 17.2.45
• Olt Oskar Romm, 17.2.45 - 25.4.45

Formed 1.6.43 in Neubiberg. On 15.4.44 became IV. (Sturm)/JG3

25.1.45 - 6.2.45 Stargard
Fw 190A6.2.45 - 25.4.45 Prenzlau
Fw 190Ahttp://www.feldgrau.com/JG3.htm

Here is first info to our mystery:

http://files.homepagemodules.de/b208...359p1176n5.jpg

and search by "Bock" on the list:

http://www.aircrewremembrancesociety...anPilotsB.html

By the way in our area KIA a lot of German pilots from JG3, here is list:
http://www.luftwaffe.be/miajg3.html

The same day also KIA another pilot from JG3:

19/02/45 Ofw. Hans Kleinchen 15./JG 3 Fw 190 A-8 (739152) Unknown reason, area of Pyritz / Stargard

For photos from wrack see here:

http://208090.homepagemodules.de/t35...h-code-Fl.html

Best regards,

KrisJG3

Of course pilot name is not confirmed , yet !!!!!

Maybe somebody of you can help us ?

[harrison987]

It is not Fw190...the parachute is not the type the pilots wore....so it would probably be an Me109...

Mike

[KrisJG3]

Dear Mike,

As I know JG3 in the half of 1944 changed some aircrafts from Bf109 onto FW190 so they could use in 1945 the parachute equipment on the FW190 A8.

Can anybody confirm this fact ?

Look here:
http://www.luftwaffe.be/miajg3.html

on the list from pilots:

25/12/44 Uffz. Karl-Heinz Nieman 14.Sturm/JG 3 Fw 190 A-8/R are mixed aircrafts and after


"15/03/45 Fw. Werner Martin Stab IV./JG 3 Fw 190 D-9 (211147) "

are only shot down FW190 , before Bf109.

In the end of II WW pilots could use on the FW the parachute equipment from Bf aircrafts.

As we see JG3 received in the half of 1944 new model of:

"..Flying modified Fw 190A-R8's with extra armour and wing-mounted 30mm MK-108 cannons, IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 became both renowned with the Lufwaffe and feared by the USAAF bomber crews. Oblt. Werner Gerth, Staffelkapitän 14./JG 3, was shot down 11 times and was finally killed when his parachute failed to open after ramming a B-17 (his 27th claim). Due to their added weight (some 400 lbs) and lack of speed, the Sturmböcke aircraft had to be escorted by conventional fighters. ..."

Please check also here:
http://www.cieldegloire.com/jg_003.php
info. for : 10./JG 3

26.1.44 - 26.2.44 Venlo Bf 109G
26.2.44 - 7.6.44 Salzwedel Bf 109G, Fw 190A
8.6.44 - 13.6.44 Dreux Fw 190A


and also:
http://www.combatsim.com/htm/oct99/sturm1.htm
http://www.combatsim.com/htm/oct99/sturm2.htm

and more:

"...By the end of April it had been decided to disband the Sturmstaffel, and to fold its pilots and aircraft in to IV.(Sturm)/JG 3 to set up the first Sturmgruppe, which would be fully equipped with the Fw 190.
Simply the heavily armored A-6, A-7..........very very few of these and the A-8/R2 and R8 were called Sturmjäger especially the A-8 variants. The other name was for a single aircraft called Sturmböck, more than one is Sturmböcke.

At first and for most of the career any A-6 and A-7 with the outboard 30mm's were called A-6/MK or A-6/R2 and the A-7/MK or R2 variants. For the A-8/R2 the first a/c had the upper 13mm machine guns in the cowling and then they were removed but there were some aerodynamic problems with open upper chutes so a new fairing was developed to counter the problem. The Variant was known as the R2 till in November-December 1944 the new standard sturm FW 190 coming off the lines were called A-8/R8's. They had the fairings on the cowlings as standard. In any case till the month of January 1945 you could heavy armed Focke-Wulf Sturm machines even with the upper 13mm's still installed, as well as the four 20mm and 13mms on the usually fitted A-8. Some of the Sturm pilots preferred no armor or extra 30mm canon so they could have better handling properties as well as take on the US P-51 escorts much easier.

Sturmjäger or Sturmböck was one and the same for the A-6 to A-8 variants. The A-7 was so rare I would not even call it that as it was distributed to other units. Sturmstaffel 1 was broken up into IV.Sturm/JG 3 on May 10, 1944. ..."

Source: http://www.germanaircraftwwii.com/bl...2-sturmjaeger/

Please remember that Stettin and Hydrikwerke from Politz was very often bombed by B17 (in 1944/45) so pilots from here needed the best version of aircrafts like new FW190 A-8/R2

Mike if as you write that parachutes as here below was used in Bf109:

http://files.homepagemodules.de/b208...359p1176n8.jpg
http://files.homepagemodules.de/b208...359p1176n1.jpg
http://odkrywca.pl/forum_pics/picsforum24/unfl.jpg
http://odkrywca.pl/forum_pics/picsforum24/3078.jpg

so how looks parachute for FW190 ?

Maybe you have right but can anybode from experts say something more ? Have somebody copy of Flugbuch with pilot Hans Bock from 1944/1945 year ?
Probably this document belong to him: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/war_...k_KWinkler.jpg

We are professional team ( http://pomorze1945.com/?co=&lang=EN ) and we trying id type of wrack and name of pilot - we are almost soure that pilot was killed there - for example see part of paraschute - can not left aircraft without this equipment. One of brackets was broken during crash - as view from photo: http://files.homepagemodules.de/b208...359p1176n8.jpg

[Snautzer]

bock doesnt have to be a name. could also be the place designated to jack up the plane (auf bocken)

[KrisJG3]

Yes, but first of all we have take into consideration all options.
For us above mentioned option is one of moust imortant.

So please try to help us.

So we would like to ask about contact with person which could have Flugbuch of Hans Bock. or all pilots JG3 from Prenzlau.

Yes we know it can be not possible after so long time but .... .
We think that somebody could find during IIWW fresh wrack after as it was crashed and also pilot's Soldbuch and rewrite on the small piece of wrack pilot name "Bock".

But it is only one of options.

We almost sure come back to this place and we will search engine from wrack maybe it help us to find serial number of engine.

Kris

[KrisJG3]

Dears ,

I"m looking for: LW Loss Report, Microfilm #12

have somebody of you this film ?

Probably from German Records (OKL- OberkommandoderLuftwaffe)
I have info. that in this film is information about Hans Bock.- maybe somebody could check it ?

[Recceswind]

19.2.45, Fw 190 A8, W.Nr. 682940, destroyed 100%, reason/location unknown, Uffz. Herbert Bock - MIA

[KrisJG3]

Originally Posted by Recceswind

19.2.45, Fw 190 A8, W.Nr. 682940, destroyed 100%, reason/location unknown, Uffz. Herbert Bock - MIA

- are you sure Herebert not Hans ?

Look here:

Bock, Hans Ofw IV(Sturm)/JG-3 Fw 190A-8 Werk # 682940 (lost 2/19/45) Fighter Operational Clasp MIA 19 February, 1945, cause and location not reported. Source: http://www.aircrewremembrancesociety...anPilotsB.html

[John Manrho]

KrisJG3,

The name is Uffz. Hermann Bock, born 20.03.1924. Not Herbert and not Hans. I believe he belonged to 15. Staffel.

I also believe it is better to post more pictures from the wreckage here so that specialists could try to identify type and sub-type in stead of making all kinds of assumptions on that marking saying "bock".....

J.

[Recceswind]

Loss list says "Herbert" but everyone knows that these documents are not accurate...