What was Wrong with Fw 190 Right Hand Turns?

[Boomerang]

Gentleman:

In Don Caldwell's JG 26 War Dairy Vol 2, he describes an encounter between Fw 190s and 9 AF P47s on 20 August 1944. Caldwell's report states that, in discussions of air combat tactics, 9 AF P47 pilots reckoned the Fw 190 had a fatal inability to make sharp right turns.

As someone without an aeronautical engineering background, I find this description of such asymmetrical flight characteristics quite baffling. Thus:

• is there other evidence to support the claim of the 190's inability to make tight right turns?
• if there is, is there a readily understood explanation for this characteristic?

Thank you

Don W

[FalkeEins]

...Lt. Victor Heimann (8./JG 300) in Lorant/Goyat (JG 300):


".. As we came in sight of the airfield at Bindlach, four Mustangs hove into view above us. Two of the American fighters were already wheeling down towards us. I gesticulated desperately in Poppe’s direction to warn him as the Mustangs converged to attack. I will never know if he saw my warning signals or not. In the instant that followed, I jettisoned my auxiliary fuel tank and broke very hard left to turn and face the P-51s. This maneuver proved fatal. The Focke-Wulf 190 had one nasty vice - the wing would drop and the aircraft pitch brutally over into a half roll when pulling turns that were too tight. My crate rolled through 180°, stalled and plunged vertically down. This unwitting and unfortunate evolution brought me right into my opponent’s sights.."

[George Hopp]

Heimann's maneuver sounds like a high-speed stall to me, but undoubtedly others can give a more detailed assessment.

I'm not aware of any limitations of maneuverability on the 190, but at high speed, the short-ruddered 109 had problems turning left at high speeds because the pilot had to hold left rudder at higher speeds, 2 degrees at 300 mph, to keep the a/c flying straight. As noted in one report on the 109E: "The rudder is very heavy at high speeds, and a large force is necessary to apply even such a small amount; this becomes very tiring, and affects the pilot's ability to put on more left rudder to assist a turn to the left. Consequenly at high speeds the Me.109 turns more readily to the right than to the left."

Hope this helps,
George

[Graham Boak]

Sounds like a high-speed stall to me to: certainly no hint of any asymmetry.

The phenomenon described for the 109 is due to the camber placed on the fin/rudder to counter the propwash/torque. This would only balance at one speed (for a given rpm): above this speed the "lift" would be greater than the force it was opposing, and this would get steadily greater with speed. Hence the later 109s grew trim tabs on the rudder.

[Kutscha]

Originally Posted by Graham Boak

Sounds like a high-speed stall to me to: certainly no hint of any asymmetry.

The phenomenon described for the 109 is due to the camber placed on the fin/rudder to counter the propwash/torque. This would only balance at one speed (for a given rpm): above this speed the "lift" would be greater than the force it was opposing, and this would get steadily greater with speed. Hence the later 109s grew trim tabs on the rudder.

Late model 109s did not have adjustable trim tabs on the rudder. There was the Flettner tab which eased the force required to be applied by the pilot.

On the 190s flight departure, have read that this was caused by improperly adjusted ailerons.

[Boomerang]

Gentleman:

Thank you for your replies.

I have read that 190 pilots were warned that, if engaged in a tight turning fight: '...In clean congiguration, the stall was sudden and vicious. Let the speed fall below 127mph and...the port wing would drop so violently that the Fw 190 all but turned on its back. Pull into a G-stall in a tight spin and it would flick over into oppposite bank and you had an incipient spin on your hands...' (Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Aces of the Russian Front, John Weal

So it would seem that, notwithstanding its merits, the 190 did have some vices (that said, it remains just about my favourite WW2 aircraft!)

Don W

[Kutscha]

I have read that this flick/stall wether it was in a right turn or a left turn always resulted in the a/c departing to port.

One expert on the 190 also claims that some pilots used the flick/stall as an evasive manuever. The a/c being easy to to recover unlike the P-51 which took several 1000ft to recover.

[Graham Boak]

Was the 190 rigged with the port wing at a greater incidence, perhaps to cope with engine torque? That might explain why the port wing stalled first, as would seem from the description.

[wotan]

In Norbert Hannig's book ' Luftwaffe Fighter Ace' on page 61 of the English version (translated by John Weal) he writes:

The Fw 190's performance and flying characteristics were equally impressive. In a dive in could exceed 700km/h. It was highly responsive around all axes, could be reefed into a tight turn, and gave its pilot ample warning of a stall by sharp, jerky aileron movements. If these were ignored the machine would automatically go into a flick half roll, losing height and turning 180° in less time then it takes to describe here. The maneuver was virtually impossible for another pilot to follow. If you were in a dogfight, and had sufficient altitude, it was a sure way of getting an opponent off your tail. This "built-in" escape tactic was the saving of many a Forke pilot who found himself in extremis.

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

In his book on JG 51, Mr. Weal states that this nasty trait of the Fw 190 when close to stalling speed was responsible for the incident in which Major Karl-Gottfried Nordmann (77 victories, RK), Geschwaderkommodore of JG 51, collided with Oberleutnant Rudolf Busch (40 victories, DK-G), acting Gruppenkommandeur of I./JG 51, on 17 January 1943. While climbing away in a tight turn after take-off from the Iwan-See, Nordmann's Fw 190 A-2 "Black <<-" (W.Nr. 0122 156) suddenly flicked over into opposite bank and struck Busch's Fw 190 A-3 "White 7" (W.Nr. 130 443) over Welikije-Luki. Busch was killed and although Nordmann only suffered a dislocated arm he was so unnerved that he never flew operationally again. Perhaps this is the most notorious of this type of incident.

Horrido!

Leo