Heinz Bartels trio down on 23rd April 1944

[Minima]

Dear Sirs,
Our historical aircraft club may have discovered some artifacts and one crash site of Spitfires downed on 23rd April 1944 south-west of Cili (now Celje - Slovenia).
Therefore we seek any information regarding this dogfight - preferably combat after action reports.
Kindest regards
Saso Knez
Minima historical aircraft club
www.aeroklub-minima.si

[Boris Ciglic]

One of Bartels' dubious claims. No Spitfires were lost in that area, which isn't strange since it was beyond range of any Spit unit in Italy at the time - if my calculations were ok. 15.AF was flying over Slovenia that day but there are no matching losses for any American fighter either. So, what you have came down on some later date, in my opinion in 1945.

[Horst Kube]

[quote=Boris Ciglic;50643]

Please clarify: ..."what you have came down on some later date, in my opinion in 1945".

(Bartels was KIA on 23rd of December 1944 over Villip/near Bonn)

Best, Horst

[Boris Ciglic]

Hi Horst,
I wanted to say that the Spitfire parts Minima has found must belong to some aircraft which came down in that area much later. Spitfires were frequently in action over Slovenia from late 1944 till the end of the war. My tip would be Mk.IX MJ525 of 73.Sqn which went down near Prelok on 4 March 1945.
I know that bartels fell in December, indeed many years ago I've read Girbig's book "Vermisst" and how he was found many years later.

[Minima]

Hiya Boris,
Thanks for the answer. In fact it could be also a Hurricane - time and bits and pieces will tell.
There was some research of the aircraft downed in this area in the publication published by the Celje museum. It is titled Bombs on Celje.
Boris, ako zelis mogu ti poslati ovo, ako jos nemas.
The researchers don't have anything noted about the trio claimed by Bartels. So, it might have been a false claim.
Kindest regards and thanks

[drgondog]

Bartels also claimed three Mustangs east and southeast of Munich, one at Walkraiburg (one 355th pilot confirmed down there) and two others in a norherly axis from there... but on April 24, 1944 in a big battle around Munich.

The 355th and 357th FG lost combined 4 Mustangs (plus two more in mid air collisions with destroyed Me 110's) in this battle in which LW Me 109s claimed 13... theoretically 6 falling to JG27, 2 to JG3, 3 to JG26, one each to JG106, and JG301.

Regards,

Bill

[Tomislav Haramincic]

Hello all,

I'm not sure about the 23.04.44, but allready in May 1944 Spitfires were in the area very close to todays Slovenia. There are a few losses of Spitfires in the Bihac-Banja Luka area, and Fw. Richard Sommermann from the 7./JG53 was, for example, shot down over Tivoli on the 23.05.44 by a Spitfire.

regards,
Tomislav

[alessandro bray]

Hi,

the 109 downed around Tivoli is in Italy (near Rom)

Alessandro

[Tomislav Haramincic]

Hi Alessandro,

Thank you for the correction!


regards,
Tomislav