ATA Loss - Spitfire BL387

[Andy Saunders]

Can anyone provide any clues as to the loss of Spitfire BL387 on 16 December 1941. The pilot was 1st Officer Joseph Stuart WILEY (USA) of the ATA, 6FPP.

Where was the Spitfire lost? Wiley is commemorated at Runnymede, no known grave.

[paulmcmillan]

Andy
are you sure?

Chris Pointon who has done a lot of work on ATA Casualties has him on Kittyhawk 1 AK575 on 10/12/1941
http://www.raf-lichfield.co.uk/ATA%20Casualties.htm

I accept CWGC has his death for 16/12/1941

All the info on BL387 has that it Crashed on delivery flight to 39 MU - The issue being that would imply on land and so if a casualty a body SHOULD have been found

[Alex Smart]

Hi,
Shacklady&Morgan have in Spitfire the History,

BL387 - 39MU 16-12 6FPP cd del flt to 39 MU CE SOC 20-12.

Alex

[Andy Saunders]

Originally Posted by paulmcmillan

Andy
are you sure?

Chris Pointon who has done a lot of work on ATA Casualties has him on Kittyhawk 1 AK575 on 10/12/1941
http://www.raf-lichfield.co.uk/ATA%20Casualties.htm

I accept CWGC has his death for 16/12/1941

All the info on BL387 has that it Crashed on delivery flight to 39 MU - The issue being that would imply on land and so if a casualty a body SHOULD have been found

Paul

The only ATA casualty I have listed for 10/12/1941 is Ist Off T W Rogers who is buried at Myddfai, Carmarthenshire - so something adrift here especially as I have Rogers in Spitfire BL498 and Chris Pointon says Botha W5103.

[paulmcmillan]

Originally Posted by Andy Saunders

Paul

The only ATA casualty I have listed for 10/12/1941 is Ist Off T W Rogers who is buried at Myddfai, Carmarthenshire - so something adrift here especially as I have Rogers in Spitfire BL498 and Chris Pointon says Botha W5103.

Andy

For BL498 - I have a delivery flight to 38 MU. Force landed lost, struck trees at Bisley Glocestershire and crashed 10.12.1941 - 1st Officer HE Preston ATA safe

One way to confirm Rogers on Botha W5103 (which crashed 5 miles NE of Glossop) is to find where Rogers death was registered

Confirmed Rogers death was registered Q4 1941, Glossop (Derbyshire) Ref 7b 1262 age 24, - So he has to have been on the Botha

[Alex Smart]

Hi,
Air Brit book W1000-Z9999 has

W5103 - 6 FPP - Crashed on ferry flight Sherburn - Hawarden, 5 ml NE of Glossop, 10-12-41; Cause not known.

Alex

[paulmcmillan]

I asked Chris Pointon about this subject on RAF Commands www.rafcommands.com and he replied as follows

"
Paul - The only information that I have is that the Kittyhawk was en route from Speke to Prestwick on 10th December 1941 and went missing and Wiley was presumed dead on the 16th December 1941.

I have no other means of challenging that until I check all these ATA accidents out against loss cards at Hendon. I would say that in the absence of a body on Spitfire BL387 I am sticking to my version of events at the present time.

Chris"

Regards Paul

[Andy Saunders]

Paul

Yes, I accept that Rogers must be the man on the Botha. Clearly a case of making the wrong assumptions from my notes. However, there seems to be a discrepancy (possibly) between a crash involving Wiley on 10th and his death on the 16th. If he died of injuries on the 16th arising from an accident on the 10th then it seems odd that he has "no known grave" - but this could be a glitch in CWGC records. Equally, the date of death could be recorded incorrectly. Either way, would be good to solve it!

Andy

[paulmcmillan]

Andy

I agree a mystery that requires solving!

Do we have any idea where BL387 crashed?

Paul

[paulmcmillan]

Looking at this, it appears to have crash landed on a delivery flight to 39 MU at RAF Colerne from CBAF (Castle Bromwich) - And was under control of a pilot of 6 FPP (Ratcliffe, Leicestershire) - As a direct flight from the Midlands to Wiltshire does not go over any large expanse of water (and assume not over River Severn) and it says crash landed I assume the pilot if he was killed would NOT be listed missing on Runnymeade Memorial unless it was not a crash landing but a high speed impact with the ground and the aircraft and pilot was not recovered,- But a location for the crash landing would be good