JG 2: Fw 190 dogfight with P-47 on 10/21/1944

[TCO]

I am looking for information regarding a dogfight between quite a number of FW 190 and P-47 on 10/21/1944.

- which unit did the P-47 belong to?
- who was shot down? (German & Allied losses)

Thx for your support!
TCO

[shooshoobaby]

TCO -
2 8th AF P-47 Groups engaged in
Dogfight with FW 190s around Arnheim.
56th FG Claimed 12
353d FG Claimed 3
56th FG lost 2
353d FG lost 1
Mike

[TCO]

Looks, like it was an engagement between the 365th FG and JG 2.
The timing would fit.

By now I found another name: Major Jim Hill form 388. FS claimed 2 FW 190

Questions:
- Can somebody quote the names of the American pilots, who claim scores?

- Can somebody else help with the names of the downed German pilots?

Best Regards,
TCO

[TCO]

With your kind support I was able to collect more details and come to the following summary:

On 10/21/1944 36 P-47 of the 365th FG “Hell-Hawks” took off at Chievres at 14:29 for their 2nd mission of this day. The formation was led by Major John R. Murphy. They were at EUPEN around 15:00. As the group orbited three miles southeast of Bonn at 16:00, four planes left the formation. As the group orbited, Major Murphy got a vector from MARMITE towards “bogies” at 20,000 feet and at eleven o’ clock to the “Hell-Hawks” position near Hadamar. The “bogies” were soon identified as thirty FW-190s. A bit strange is, that acc. to the Americans another large group of 25-30 Fw 190s joined the battle.

During a fierce dogfight in the area north of Monatbaur the Americans claimed 21 German aircraft (including 1 Me 109!?) destroyed, 1 Fw 190 probably destroyed and another 11 aircraft damaged.
The Americans lost 1 P47, piloted by Lt. R. Hagan crash landing near Athus/Belgium.
Lt. Longley’ s P-47 was damaged (he took a 20 mm shell in left wing), and he crash-landed his plane back at Chievres.

However, acc. to German sources it was only 27 fighters of JG 2 “Richthofen” who took off from airfields in Hesse. It was a ferry-flight to the Ruhr-area and some pilots had not even completed their fighter-school.
It seems that JG 2 “Richthofen” lost only 9 Fw 190A-8 this day.
The Germans claimed five P-47 shot down.

Questions:

1.)
How comes that the Americans identified two large groups of FW 190?
1 x 30 Fw 190
1 x 25-30 Fw 190
It is rather unlikely that the Germans were able to get appr. 60 fighters (all Fw 190s) in the air at this stage of the war.
30 is already impressive but 60!????

2.)
Why is there no MACR for P-47 on 10/21/1945 with the exception of Lt Vernon Murphy (368. FG), who was not involved in this dogfight?

3.)
Can somebody verify that JG 2 lost only 9 planes that day?

Thx for your help!
TCO