JG 2: FW 190 dogfight with P-47 on 10/21/1944

[TCO]

I am looking for information regarding a dogfight between quite a number of FW 190 and P-47 on 10/21/1944.

- which unit did the P-47 belong to?
- who was shot down? (German & Allied losses)

Thx for your support!
TCO

[Nick Beale]

Please can you give us a loccation for this combat?

[TCO]

Location was the Westerwald-area (between Westerburg and Hachenburg).

[Alain57]

Hi TCO ,

Found the following info :

P-47 42-75416 368FG/397FS was lost on 10/21/1944 MACR 9785.The pilot 2nd Lt Vernon V Murphy 0-697223 became POW in Stalag Luft 1 Barth.

Greetings
Alain

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

I do not know for certain if this was in the same air battle that is referred to here but Leutnant Willi Stratmann (29 victories, DK-G) of 4./JG 2 was wounded that day in Fw 190 A-8 (W.Nr. 734 388) during aerial combat with USAAF P-47 fighters and baled out near Dernbach which appears to be in the same area. This information thanks to Heuser. Unfortunately I do not know if there were additional JG 2 losses but I hope this helps out somewhat.

Horrido!

Leo

[Kaczmarek]

The JG 2 lost further seven Fw 190 in the Westerwald area on this day.

Kaczmarek

[TCO]

All: Well, quite a lot - 7 FW 190 and 1 P-47 so far...

Kaczmarek: Is it conveniant for you to specify your reply (names, squadron?)

I would appreciate it - Thx!
TCO

[CENTURION]

Hello TCO

Based on the info I was able to collect, there was one dogfight that day near the location you specified. It involved 32 P47s (out of 36 that took-off for that mission) of the 365th Fighter Group and German fighters of the JG 2. The Americans engaged dogfight with several groups of German fighters between Bonn and Koblenz, and in particular near Zehnhausen, between 15:45 and 16:15. They claimed 21 German fighters. In details:
the 386th FS claimed 2 FW 190
the 387th FS claimed 6 FW 190
the 388th FS claimed 10 FW 190 & 1 ME 109
the 365th FG (Maj. J. Murphy) claimed 2 FW 190
Americal losses amounted to 1 P47, piloted by Lt. R. Hagan (crash landing near Monshau).
(sources: Frank Oynyk - "USAAF Credits for the Desctruction of Enemy Aircraft in Air-to-Air Combat in WW2" & US archives)

Also, according to the Tony Wood website - German Claims list, the III/JG 2 claimed 5 P47 between 16:09 and 16:15 in the same area.

I don't have any data related to German losses, I hope someone else can provide a detailed list.

I am not sure Lt Vernon V Murphy of the 368FG was shot down in the same dogfight. In fact his unit was involved in a previous combat about 120 km away. The same pilot claimed 1/2 victory (FW 190) at 14:45 in an area between MunchenGladbach and NW Aachen (the only American claim in that combat) and he was probably shoot down in the same event.


Regards
Marco

[TCO]

Marco/Centurion,

I appreciate your comments very much! This is exactly what I am looking for!

I agree with you conclusions: It was an engagement between the 365th FG and JG 2.
The timing would fit.

Therefore I believe also that Lt Vernon Murphy was not a victim resulting from this dogfight.

The only strange thing is where the Me 109 came from, since JG 2 flew FW 190!?
Maybe it was a mis-identification by an American pilot?

By now I found another name: Major Jim Hill form 388. FS claimed 2 FW 190

Questions:
- Can you quote the names of the American pilots, who claim scores?

- Can somebody else help with the names of the downed German pilots?
(so far we know only WILLI STRATMANN quoted by Leo Etgen)

Best Regards,
TCO

[Kaczmarek]

@TCO,

you have a PM.

Kaczmarek