a lancaster shot-down by Me163

[RT]

On 10. april a Me163 shot down a Lancaster at 16h00, seems the 163 crashed also, who could confirm ??

Remi

[RT]

1945

[Brian Bines]

Remi, all I could find was the description in the book Komet by Jeffrey L. Ethel that on the 10-4-45 at 1605hrs F/O Haslop in a Mustang of 165 Sqd. engaged a Komet. The Komet had been attacking RAF bombers raiding Leipzig when Haslop attacked it, but he blacked out attempting the follow the Komet into a sharp climb. Other pilots said the Komet spun out and crashed near Brandis, unfortunately there is no identity of the Komet or the fate of its pilot,

Regards

Brian Bines

[RT]

My source is totally different so ascertain the book statement

Remi

[RodM]

Hi Remi,

the incident did take place but may or may not have resulted in the destruction of a 'Lancaster'.

405 Squadron Lancaster ME315 was attacked by an Me163 and damaged by 4 hits from 30 mm calibre ammunition.

An Me163 also attacked Halifax RG477 of 415 Squadron, but no damage was caused to the Halifax. Another Halifax, NP937 of 425 Squadron, fired upon the Me163 as the latter attacked either RG477 or ME315. Initially, damage was claimed as strikes were seen, but this was later downgraded to no claim. As Brian has mentioned, one of the escorting Mustangs claimed an Me163 as damaged.

The only two losses during this this raid were caused (according to official RAF BC reports) by Flak and falling bombs over the target area cira 1755-1805 hours (433 Sqdn Lancaster PB903 believed hit by Flak and 415 Squadron NA185 believed hit by falling bombs). The established causes of loss were made based upon the testimony of all the returned crews who witnessed the incidents. There is some contrary evidence to suggest that one of these bombers was shot down by an Me163; of the two, probably 415 Sqdn NA165...

Cheers

Rod

Postscript - as I know that this has been discussed before, I searched around for some old posts on various discussion boards.

See: http://www.rafcommands.com/cgi-bin/d...rum=DCForumID6

From Hugh Halliday:

"In the target area, immediately following release of T.I.’s, Lancaster aircraft “K” ME315 was attacked by an enemy fighter, ME.163. The attacking aircraft approached from the rear and above, and with one burst completely shot away the rear turret, rudder and elevator. Damage was also caused to the H2S set and mid-upper turret. The rear gunner, F/L Mellstrom, was in his turret when the attack commenced and is believed killed. This Officer is missing, no further information available. A number of Mustangs who were acting as fighter escort moved in closer to the disabled aircraft and covered it until it reached the front lines. The pilot, due to the fact that he had only partial control of the aircraft, ordered the W/Air, Nav, B/A and V/B/A to bale out over RAF Station, Woodbridge. Had not the M/U/G been injured the whole crew would have baled out. The pilot was successful in making a reasonable landing at RAF Station Woodbridge. All members of this crew, with the exception of the rear gunner, are back at this unit."

From SteveB in same thread:


"I know Hugh wants the LW side of the story but this incident was also linked to the only claim against a Komet made by an RAF (Mustang) pilot. The 165Sqdn ORB records for 10 April 1945:
"Twelve aircraft were airborne at 1535 hours on Ramrod 1534 as escort to the front of 200 heavy bombers (110 Lancasters and 90 Halifaxes) bombing the railway centre and marshalling yards at Leipzig. Our pilots experienced flak coming from the neighbourhood of Halle airfield judged to be 88mm. About this same time an Me163 came up from the airfield, attacked and shot down one bomber from underneath continued its very fast ascent and prepared to dive down on the formation. F/Off Haslope followed it down in its dive firing most of the time and he claims one damaged". The Australian Johnny 'Slops' Haslope was later credited with a destroyed. The story goes that he seriously bent the wings of his a/c in the dive after the Komet. It is certainly the case that there is no further record of his a/c KH557/SK*Z flying with 165Sqdn again before the end of the War."

Also see Richard Koval's 6 Group RCAF website: http://www.rcaf.com/6group/April45/April1045.html

Also see: http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...=0&#entry20368

From my own post, that refers to an ULTRA decrypt also:

"...and here is the other claim by an Me 163 from ULTRA (DEFE 3/569-570):

REF: CX/MSS/T.529/63 R.529/C/6
KO 1303

Information 10th. Lancaster shot down at 17.02 hours (note - I've corrected this time from GMT to CET) by Me 163 of I./JG 400 Brandis (this conversion is incorrection, see below, Rod)

242214Z/4/45

Here is what the BC ORS had to say about this incident, an RAF daylight raid upon Liepzig on the 10/4/45 (Interception Tactics Report No. 89/45 AIR 14/3745):

The penetration was lightly plotted from the North Sea to Leipzig, where a few rocket-propelled Me.163s and jet-propelled Me.262s were seen. One of the Me.163s attacked a Halifax at 16,000 ft. closing very fast from 1.000 to 800 yds., when the Halifax landed (sic - means 'evaded' not 'landed'). Another Halifax opened fire probably on the same Me.163 and claims to have damaged it. Fighters also claimed 1 Me.163 damaged. Apart from this there were no fighter incidents.

The missing bombers were seen to be destroyed by flak and by falling bombs over the target.

Cause of loss:- 1 aircraft to flak, 1 by falling bombs.

The two 'bombers' lost on the Leipzig raid were 415 Sqn Halifax NA185 (estimated as hit by falling bombs over target - AIR 14/3460) and 433 Sqn Lancaster PB903 (estimated to have been shot down by Flak - AIR 14/3460). 415 Sqn Lancaster ME315 was damaged (Cat AC) by 4 x 30mm rounds (AIR 14/3460), presumably fired by an Me163 (and not apparently mentioned in the IT Report), and it may be this last aircraft that was claimed by I./JG400 - abeit another that got away..."

Since that post in 2007, I've obtained a copy of the ULTRA decrypt (CX/MSS/R.529/C/6 from HW 5/697 @ TNA), which is presented below, see the bottom of the document (I believe the correct time of the claim would be 18.02 hrs (GMT + 2 hours)...

[Chris Goss]

According to what I have, no Me 163s were lost and what Slops Haslop attacked managed to get down undamaged

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by RodM

I've obtained a copy of the ULTRA decrypt ... (I believe the correct time of the claim would be 18.02 hrs (GMT + 2 hours)...

All ULTRA times are given in GMT and, you're right, 2 hours need to be added to get German Summer Time which applied on the date in question.

[RodM]

Hi Remi,

just an addy, with details from the Combat Reports from the 6 Group Halifaxes:

415 Squadron RG447 S reported an attack by an Me163 at 18.02 hours, 16,500ft, at position 5124N 1222E. Narrative -
"E/A first seen by pilot, port bow up at 1500 yds. Attack Developed port beam level. "Corkscrew starboard" was ordered by the Mid Upper Gunner who opened fire at 800 yds. Rear Gunner opened at 700 yds. with both gunners firing until E/A broke off, port down at 600 yards."

425 Squadron Halifax NP937 T initially claimed the Me 163 as 'probably destroyed' at 18.02 hours, 16,200ft, at position 5118N 2321E. Claim was downgraded to 'no claim'. Narrative (which confirms that this crew witnessed the Me 163 attack and damage Lancaster ME315) -
"The enemy a/c was seen attacking a Lancaster ahead; fire was seen in the R/T and no combat manouvres was taken, so the M/Upper gunner of this Halifax opened fire on the enemy which stalled and fell on his back to port beam down. Rear gunner saw the enemy go down in steep dive".

Cheers

Rod