A ?? RE: an engagement on June 14 1944...

[NickM]

...somewhere over Hungary;

Guys:

I don't have access to lots of my Axis Airforces stuff so I am turning to you guys: I got a new book as a gift & one of the stories involved a squadron of the 14th Fighter Group who were escorting Bombers 'somewhere over Hungary(sorry I forgot the target)' on June 14, 1944 & got bounced by a large gaggle of Me109s-I don't know if they were Hungarian or German or both...anyhoo, the squadron lost 5 planes & claimed something like 13 of the opposition;

ANYBODY have an accurate count of the units involved in the furball & their actual losses?

TiA

NM

[John Beaman]

Nick:

Are you sure of the date? I have no 109 losses over Hungary on that date. Almost all German 109 units were in Normandy or on their way there. We do not have damaged records for 1944, of course, but with 14 claims it would seem some might have been valid 100% losses.

[NickM]

John:

I'm pretty darned sure that the engagement took place on June 14th; 14th FG escorting bombers attacking oil targets over Hungary; HOWEVER...IF no Axis aircraft were actually lost, I reckon it's understandable, given the fact that the US Squadron was rather heavily outnumbered & also suffered pretty sizable losses(the squadron had to assume a Lufbury formation to survive)-I'm sure they couldn't watch any 109s they were shooting at for too long...Any 14th FG experts out there?
Checked another site & apparently the squadron was 49th FS of the 14th FG; they were jumped by 30+ Me 109s of the 101st Fighter Group commanded by Cpt G. Horvath; they were joined by "70+" German Me109s & FW109s; The Hungarian suffered one loss(Lt. Kiraly KIA) & two 109s damaged; don't know a thing about the Germans-They MIGHT have been elements of JG3 and/or JG 300(sturm units were used against the 15th AF at this time?)...but I am not sure.

TiA

NM

[Jan Gazda]

Tony Woods files reveal only one German claim for P 38 that day over Hungary

14.06.44 Ltn. Ernst-Dieter Grumme: 22 4./JG 302 P-38 £ HQ-9-HR-7: 4.500 m. [N. Plattensee] 11.20-25 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: ASM

Jan

[kaki3152]

The P-38s were claimed by a Hungarian unit flying Me-109s

[Frans A]

Book : Jagdgeschwader 301/302 by Willi Reschke page 262:
Lt. Ernst Grumme 4./JG 302 KIA 44-07-14 Budäors Hungaria.

[NickM]

Hmmmm....Not JG300 but JG302...well I was close; any other losses by LW on the day in question?
Thx

NM

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Do not confuse the dates: Grumme was shot down a month later, on 14 July, not on 14 June (but by the 14th FG). His one was the only German claim, there were 6 kills confirmed to the Hungarians. 5 Lightnings were lost and two others suffered serious damages. On the 49th FS side, they got 15 confirmed kills on that day (heavy overclaim). Two of their pilots became aces on the sortie, Jack Lenox (he is still with us) and Louis Benne (who led the squadron and who was shot down and become POW, deceased in 1978).

[NickM]

Originally Posted by Csaba Becze

Do not confuse the dates: Grumme was shot down a month later, on 14 July, not on 14 June (but by the 14th FG). His one was the only German claim, there were 6 kills confirmed to the Hungarians. 5 Lightnings were lost and two others suffered serious damages. On the 49th FS side, they got 15 confirmed kills on that day (heavy overclaim). Two of their pilots became aces on the sortie, Jack Lenox (he is still with us) and Louis Benne (who led the squadron and who was shot down and become POW, deceased in 1978).

Csaba: Yes...THOSE dates being exactly a month apart 'threw me' for moment; thanks for the feedback; RE: The actual Axis losses: so then the Hungarians lost one shot down & two damaged(forced landed) & the Germans are as yet undetermined? Again given the odds & circumstances of this dogfight the overclaiming was understandable.

nm

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Originally Posted by NickM

Csaba: Yes...THOSE dates being exactly a month apart 'threw me' for moment; thanks for the feedback; RE: The actual Axis losses: so then the Hungarians lost one shot down & two damaged(forced landed) & the Germans are as yet undetermined? Again given the odds & circumstances of this dogfight the overclaiming was understandable.

nm

Nick,

One Hungarian Messer crashed and one belly landed due to combat damage. One German aircraft also was shot down. The number of Axis planes was not so high, but there are always enough cause for the overclaim in such furious dogfights.