P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin

[Eagle0025]

Howdy all,

I am trying to help out a German friend of mine with a research request. His father was Oblt. KarlHeinz Dietsche, Staffelkapitaen of 2./JG302. Oblt. Dietsche was involved in air combat with P-47s west of Berlin on 29 Mar 44. He was subsequently shot down in his Fw190 by a P-47 near Stendal, Germany (about 60 miles due west of Berlin). I am trying to determine who the P-47 pilot was who may have shot him down.

I searched the Air Force Historical Research Agency database that documents all AF aerial victory credits. I found 37 confirmed claims for 29 Mar 44. After discarding all P-51 unit credits, I came up with 9 possible candidates. They are as follows:

Callans, Glenn G. 1Lt, 352 FS
Forkin, Thomas J. Capt 352 FS
Jordan, William J. 1Lt. 352 FS
Rankin, Robert J. 1Lt. 61 FS
Rubner, Chester H. Jr. 1Lt. 359 FS
Schilling, David C. Lt. Col. 56 FG
Streit, William F. 1Lt. 352 FS
Thorne, James H. Major 359 FS

Does anyone know which of the above outfits (352nd FS, 61 FS, 359th FS, or 56th FG) was operating west of Berlin on 29 Mar 44?

Thanks much in advance. Cheers, Gary Koch

[kb]

Hopes this helps close the gaps.

56FG Claims:

56FG HQ LtCol David Schilling 1 ME109 Dest NE Dummer Lake
61FS Lt Robert Rankin 1 ME109 Dest NE Nienburg

356FG Claims:

356 HQ Maj J H Thorne 1 ME109 Dest Steinhuder Lake
359FS Lt C H Rubner 1 ME109 Dest Steinhuder Lake
359FS Lt J B Smith 1 ME109 Dest Steinhuder Lake

No detailed info on file for 353FG claims; 352FS claimed 5 E/A dest during escort over "NW Germany".

The downing location near Stendal makes it appear unlikely this gentleman was downed by a P47; if a P47 was involved it would have been at the extreme edge of its range in March 1944; a P51 would be a more likely opponent. Time of the engagement would help narrow down possible opponents

[Six Nifty .50s]

Originally Posted by Eagle0025

Howdy all,

I am trying to help out a German friend of mine with a research request. His father was Oblt. KarlHeinz Dietsche, Staffelkapitaen of 2./JG302. Oblt. Dietsche was involved in air combat with P-47s west of Berlin on 29 Mar 44. He was subsequently shot down in his Fw190 by a P-47 near Stendal, Germany (about 60 miles due west of Berlin). I am trying to determine who the P-47 pilot was who may have shot him down.

I searched the Air Force Historical Research Agency database that documents all AF aerial victory credits. I found 37 confirmed claims for 29 Mar 44. After discarding all P-51 unit credits, I came up with 9 possible candidates. They are as follows:

Callans, Glenn G. 1Lt, 352 FS
Forkin, Thomas J. Capt 352 FS
Jordan, William J. 1Lt. 352 FS
Rankin, Robert J. 1Lt. 61 FS
Rubner, Chester H. Jr. 1Lt. 359 FS
Schilling, David C. Lt. Col. 56 FG
Streit, William F. 1Lt. 352 FS
Thorne, James H. Major 359 FS

Does anyone know which of the above outfits (352nd FS, 61 FS, 359th FS, or 56th FG) was operating west of Berlin on 29 Mar 44?

Thanks much in advance. Cheers, Gary Koch

356th Fighter Group
Lt. Col. Tukey led a penetration support from 1154 to 1545 hrs. Landfall near Egmond at 1235 and R/V near Quackenbruck at 1301.

Three German fighters, identified as Me 109s, were seen in the Steinhuder Lake area. Maj. Thorne (HQ) claimed a 109 shot down and Lt. Rubner (359th Sqn) claimed another 109 shot down in the same action.

56th Fighter Group
Col. Zemke led a withdrawl support from 1242 to 1619 hrs. The planes were divided into 'A' and 'B' groups, although Zemke, Capt. Gladych and Lt. Robey took off on a freelance sweep about 10 minutes in advance of the two main formations.

Lt. Rankin (61st Sqn) was part of 'A' Group lifting off at 1252. Landfall near Ijmuiden at 1333 and R/V near Neinberg at 1410. About this time several German fighters, identified as Me 109s, were seen approaching from the southeast at 23,000 ft. Rankin claimed one destroyed.

Lt. Col. Schilling (HQ) led 'B' group lifting off at 1302. R/V over Sulingen at 1425. The B-17s were then under attack by German fighters that approached from the east. Schilling claimed one Me 109 destroyed.

Hope this helps.

[Eagle0025]

Hello all,

I recently received additional information regarding this particular action. Oblt. KarlHeinz Dietsche, Staffelkapitaen of 2./JG302 was flying Bf109G-6, Werknummer 440160, when he was shot down. He told his son that he was not sure if his opponent was a P-51 or P-47, but believes it was a P-47 because it gained on him in a dive at a much greater rate of speed than his own. It looks like the engagement took place near Magdeburg. He told told his son that he was shot down near Stendal, but he went into the hospital of Jüterbog. Not having a detailed map of the area, does this correspond to any known claims information (P-51 or P-47) for 29 Mar 44? Thanks, Vielen Dank, and Merci beaucoup for any help.

Cheers, Gary Koch

[kb]

4FG claimed several ME109s on this date, but unfortunately many are lacking location information and where locations are given none are in the vicinity given by your friend's father.

For a copy of a WWII Luftwaffe map of western Europe visit this link:

http://jg26.vze.com/

[Six Nifty .50s]

Originally Posted by Eagle0025

Hello all,

I recently received additional information regarding this particular action. Oblt. KarlHeinz Dietsche, Staffelkapitaen of 2./JG302 was flying Bf109G-6, Werknummer 440160, when he was shot down. He told his son that he was not sure if his opponent was a P-51 or P-47, but believes it was a P-47 because it gained on him in a dive at a much greater rate of speed than his own. It looks like the engagement took place near Magdeburg

Lt. Col. Clark led the 4th Fighter Group on a Target Withdrawl Support to Brunswick from 1135 to 1635. A mixed bag of Messerschmitts and Focke-Wulfs were claimed as shot down:

334th FS:
Lt. Col. James A. Clark, FW-190, 1450 hrs, Magdeburg area.
Lt. Allan F. Bunte, FW-190, 1450 hrs, Magdeburg area.
Lt. David W. Howe, FW-190, 1329 hrs, 10 mi. n/w of Brunswick.
Lt. H. Thomas Biel, FW-190, 1330 hrs, Gifhorn, west of Brunswick.

335th FS:
Lt. Pierce W. McKennon, FW-190, ---- hrs, Brunswick area.
Lt. Clemens A. Fielder, ME-109, time and location unknown.
Lt. Charles F. Anderson, 2 FW-190s, time and location unknown.
Lt. Ralph W. Saunders, ME-109, time and location unknown.
Lt. Robert C. Church, ME-109, time and location unknown.
Lt. Paul S. Riley, ME-109, time and location unknown.

336th FS:
Capt. Don S. Gentile, 2 Fw-190s, ME-109, 1330-1400 hrs, Brunswick area.
Lt. John D. Godfrey, 2 Fw-190s, 1330 hrs, Brunswick area.
F/O Frederick W. Glover, Fw-190, 1330 hrs, Brunswick area.
Capt. Kenneth D. Peterson, 2 Fw-190s, 1315 hrs, s/w of Brunswick.

Lt. Col. Everett Stewart led the 355th Fighter Group on a Target Support over Brunswick from 1124 to 1609. They claimed 14 German planes shot down at locations unknown to me. Capt. Joseph E. Broadhead of the 357th Fighter Group claimed a German aircraft destroyed but I don't know the details. The 354th Fighter Group was off duty that day, as far as I know.

[drgondog]

The 355th FG attacked 40-50 Fw 190's near Brunswick (the target) at approximately 1320GMT and had claims of 14 air and two ground. Both the 354FS and 357FS were attacking in P-51B's. The Luftwaffe fighter force approached the B-17s from SW direction.

The 51 would usually close on an Fw 190 in a dive with no problem... although nothing out dove a Jug.

Regards,

Bill Marshall

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by drgondog

The 51 would usually close on an Fw 190 in a dive with no problem... although nothing out dove a Jug.

Actually, T-bolt had pretty poor dive performance, both Mustang and Spitfire outdiving it. This was a surprising result of supersonic dive tests performed in Britain.

[drgondog]

Franek - two points.

One you are actually correct about a Mustang outdiving a P-47 depending on model - but I really was referring to Fw 190 and 109 vs P-47 in a dive and should have been more explicit in my comments.


For the second point, I am aware of the results of tests done by USAAF at Wright Pat in comparisons of the P-51B versus Spit IX, Fw 190D, P-47D-10 and the Bf 109G12 - and the Mustang outdove all of them to varying degrees. In the case of the 47D it intially opened a gap and then the 47 matched the dive. In addition, the P-51B slightly out accelerated the P-51D in all envelopes because of the greater weight of the 51D.

I read a similar report on the P-47M versus the P-51D and the report stated that on initial nose over the 51 opened a slight gap but the P-47M closed and then moved ahead.. I will try to dig up the report so that this discussion does not remain hearsay.

Also, I have never seen a comparison of the P-51B vs the P-47D-25 or other versions which had the 'Paddle Blade' modifications that went into combat in January 1944.

Do you know which versions of Spit, Jug and Mustang were used by the Germans to conduct their tests and under which circumstances?

[Franek Grabowski]

Bill
The tests I mention were performed by Britons in 1943. A Spitfire tested was PR.XI, basically the same aircraft as Mk IX. It was found that it was a superior aircraft in a long term dive, this due to thin airfoil. Had it been realised before, the fate of several Germans would have been different.
Mustang was fast indeed, but it suffered from directional stability problems, which resulted in structural failures. I cannot say if it was the only problem though.
Thunderbolt was anything but aerodynamic, I suppose it gained its reputation by quick entering into dive without a half roll but it was not a good diver. It had a much safer structure allowing to recover from such dives without a risk though, possibly due to lower Gs applied.
I do not have any data allowing direct comparison of supersonic speeds between German and Allied aircraft unfortunatelly.
Best wishes