Book on Air Raids to Schweinfurt

[Peter Kassak]

Hi all,

I am wondering if there is any good reference book about Air Raids to Schweinfurt, with detailed information about German counterparts. Especially Zerstorer units actions (ZG 76). Mostly interested in 14.10.1943 battle.
Thanks for tips and advices....

[Rabe Anton]

Peter,

It seems that there is no reliable, up-to-date account of the 14 October 1943 "Black Thursday" operation against Schweinfurt. There is an old and beautifully written but not very reliable or detailed book by Martin Caiden titled Black Thursday, and I recommend this because of its gripping English prose and not because it is good history.


It appears to me that the best published account of the 14 Oct. 1943 Schweinfurt operation is that in Caldwell/Muller, The Luftwaffe Over Germany. I also recommend that you look at Newton/McFarland, To Command the Skies. I rather doubt, however, that either of these excellent works will yield the detail that you are seeking. Sadly, the magisterial Prien/Rodeike/ Stemmer/Bock Jagdflieger Verbände series does not encompass Zerstörer units.

RA

[Peter Kassak]

Thanks Anton,

I will try to look through the books you mentioned. I am interested in ZG 76 (second installment), and as such, I came into study of Black Thursday as well...It was a great scale air clash, so I understand it is hard to summarize or well research it. But maybe this will serve as a hint for someone to start?

I think that there are few missions/operations/days that should be well researched and described minute by minute...I hope once I will be able to read such.

THX

[Nick Beale]

Also, Martin Middlebrook's "The Schweinfurt/Regensburg Raid."

[Gizmo]

Hi,

Also "Decision over Schweinfurt" by Thomas M. Coffey is recomended, but covered American viewpoint only

I'm going to write an article about 2nd Schewinfurt raid, so maybe I can help a bit.

Here are Luftwaffe losses for 14th October according to "Strategy for Defeat" by Williamson Murray, based on BA/MA, RL 2 111/1194, Genst. Gen. Qu. (6 . Abt), "Flugzeugunfalle and Verluste bei den fliegenden Verbanden:
Total loss: 3 Bf 110, 24 Bf 109, 2 Me 410, 2 Fw 190;
Damaged above 60% and write off: 11 Bf 109 and 1 Fw 190
Damaged 40%-60%: 4 Bf 109 and 2 Fw 190
damaged bellow 40%, 17 Bf 109, 4 Fw 190, 1 Me 410
It is very surprising to me that role of Fw 190s units was very limited on 14th October air battle - see also Tony Wood Claim list.

Donald Caldwell in "The Luftwaffe over Germany" (and also most other sources) claimed that Germans lost 38 fighters. Dr. Price in 'Battles over Reich vol. 1' , based on War Diary of I. Jagdkorps, claimed only 27 Luftwaffe fighters and 6 KIA, 9 MIA and 11 WIA ( out of Jagddivision 7 losses ?)

According to recently published "Nachtjagd War Diaries" by dr. Boiten, two destroyed Bf 110 were from NJG units (Bf 110G-4 from 4./NJG 6 shot down by B-17 defencive fire, and second G-4 from 6./NJG 1 shot down by P-47), so it looks that only one Bf 110 was lost by ZG 26 or ZG 76. Also P-47s pilots claimed shot down only two Bf 110. If anyone know what Bf 110 it was, post here please.

[Rabe Anton]

Peter,

I agree with Nick Beale that Martin Middlebrook's The Schweinfurt/Regensburg Raid is an excellent work and one to be recommended—however, I think it deals with "Schweinfurt 1," that is, the operation of 17 Aug. 1943, not 14 Oct. 1943. I thought you were interested mostly in the later operation or I would have mentioned Middlebrook to you, since his works are almost always top notch.

And, Peter, how could I have forgotten it? You unquestionably will want to look at Ken Merrick's generally (and foolishly!) ignored By Day and By Night: The Bomber War in Europe 1939-45. Extremely important to basic research because it has a very nice reproduction of the Eighth AF track chart for "Schweinfurt 2," that is, a map of the routes taken by the USAAF bombers to and from their target. Other USAAF ops of interest to you may also appear in this volume.

RA

[Larry deZeng]

Also see:

Golücke, Friedhelm. Schweinfurt und der strategische Luftkrieg 1943 (Paderborn, 1980).

It has been 20+ years since I read it, but IIRC it's a scholarly, well-researched study told from the German side. It has excellent material that I have not seen elsewhere. However, this is an academic-level historical work and does not include the "who shot who down" sort of stuff that you may be looking for.

[Peter Kassak]

HI guys:

Many thanks for suggestions ind information:

Larry: Is this work available on public? Would it be possible to have a look into ZG 76 as it is describen?

Anton: I still hoep that I will see the detailed map also in BAMA under KART 43 source do nto know but will try to check it. (forgot to do so last time )
However, I will try to dig out the book you mentioned.

Gizmo: II./ZG 76 had two damaged a/c, but both due to bordwaffenschuss. 10 and 20% damage. Interesting in comparison to 7 claimed victories of ZG 76 pilots....I do nto see these in your compilation

I think here is much more to researche. As I said, I believe this day has to be researched by someone (definitelly not me minute by minute from both sides...At least it would be polite to do so for the numbers of death and wounded who flew that day on both sides...

regards

[Larry deZeng]

Hi Peter -

There are several available on the used book market - see:

http://www.eurobuch.com/search_results.php

Also, you can go to your local library and ask them to get it for you through interlibrary loan.

'gards,

Larry

[Gizmo]

Originally Posted by Peter Kassak

H
Gizmo: II./ZG 76 had two damaged a/c, but both due to bordwaffenschuss. 10 and 20% damage. Interesting in comparison to 7 claimed victories of ZG 76 pilots....I do nto see these in your compilation

You're right Peter. I overlook 6 damaged Bf 110s (all 0-40%).