FHC Fw190A-5 1227 White A 4./JG54 - Looks like a R/C model

[markjsheppard]

Hi

There might be a few on this site who might not frequent WIX.

The Flying Heritiage Collection now have an original Fw190A-5 in a 'JG54' painted scheme.

These are the colours we researched - the RLM and seem to match the photos. I know they are 'late war' but this has been discussed and it is thought JG54 trailed these in the summer of 1943. The colours are 76 underside and 79/81/82 topside.

http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor...&amp%3Bsize=xl

It does look much like the profile based on the above colours.

Photos of the existing airframe before restoration, profiles and discussions are discussed here.

http://www.warbirdinformationexchang...5703acafc883e7

Any more thoughts appreciated.

regards

MS

[JohnnyB]

Hi,

if I don´t understand wrong this colours were used when they was in russia.

Read here :

http://www.flyingheritage.com/Templa...x?contentId=63


Regards,

JohnnyB

[ChrisS]

I just thank FHC for even attempting to put her in her authentic scheme. Regardless to what has been said elsewhere it's really obvious that a lot of work went into producing an accurate colour scheme, with chips taken from the original paint and carefully matched with colour charts. JG 54 were renowned for their 'homemade' camouflage schemes and this machine's scheme represents their mid-war version. Nobody knows for sure where they got their green colour from and speculation is pointless, the important thing is that it matches the original. If you want to see some awful inaccurate schemes look at the flying replicas......

Now to make the aircraft perfect, fly it hard for 6 weeks, don't clean it, leave it in the open and let the mechanics in dirty overalls work all over it. Oh and for good measure operate it from a grass strip in all weathers. Then you will have an authentic looking machine..............

[Ruy Horta]

Slippery ground, but...

There are areas that can be discussed (ad nauseam).

The exact shades of JG 54 are still in debate and their "exactness" might even be questionable as they experimented over a longer time frame and that could mean that different colors were used.

So that leaves the wreck and interpretation. Of course trace paint is great to determine the color, but that still leaves the application.

The restored a/c has a perfect covering coat, applied with care and attention, as much to look good as it is to protect the a/c from the elements.

On a wreck it is difficult to judge the original coating because of the wear and tear of the elements over half a century.

BUT imho the main error lies in the application of the field camouflage. IMHO both original wreck and original color photographs in the field, included in the link, show an uneven application of the new paint layers over the original 74/75 camo, making for a rough in the field look as opposed to the paint shop look of the lovingly restored bird. That's besides the wear and tear of a combat aircraft, although that certainly adds up to the "combat" look we are used to when looking at original photographs.

So my main contention, imho field camouflage was often applied in a relatively thin and/or uneven coating, which combined with operational wear and tear made for a different looking combat aircraft - distinctly different from a R/C model.

[markjsheppard]

Chris

Did you actually read the argument statement on WIX?

The demarcation lines, theatre marking position, national marking positions, stencilling style location all came from me as did the recommended colours. Having researched/recorded her for 20 years, everything was based on my research, so it was logical I could help.

I also indicated swatches were taken from the protected areas of the airframe but not enough lead in time to locate and use.

There are two issues - it is too shiny. Vintage Fabrics in the UK have developed a mix to allow enough sheen for cleaning but enough matt for a more correct finish (it was matt). VF did the Bf109E, Spitfire and Hurricane for FHC. The Fw190 has been given an eggshell finish.

The blue and tan is correct. These were matched correctly. The green and brown they had no source to match (they had the skins from the tailplane which were not reused due to corrosion - there was blue to the underside and enough tan on the top to copy). There was no visible areas of the brown and green to copy so how did they get the colours?

It is these two colours I have an issue with.

Its got nothing to do with speculation if there is surviving photos, recorded surviving paint swatches and RLM chart cololurs which were not correctly assessed and so ignored.

Unfortunately, some of the replicas have a better scheme than this one.

Unfortunately Chris, you do not know the detail of the discussion and time spent of the last two months between myself and FHC. They did there own assessment on the colours - not going to any other experts - say Ken Merrick etc - it was somone in FHC who thought he knew how 1227 should be painted/coloured and got it incorrect.

Look at the photos and colour swatch again and if you have Ken Merrick's book on Luftwaffe colours - refer to that also.

Rune, the application mix, thinners used and paint type is a elevant issue. I suggested more testing, experimentation and sample panels were painted before going to the aircraft. A 20 year restoration and a three week lead in time for painting is not the best way to go. This needed to be undertaken months before the started painting the aircraft. Too quick and with the unfortunate results.

regards

MS

[JohnnyB]

Maybe it´s needed to look here to see JG54-Camo how it was in russia :

http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/...wulf/fw190.htm

Completely different. This fhc-190 really looking loke a rc-plane.

Regards,

JohnnyB

[ChrisS]

Slippery ground indeed Ruy!

Hands up Mark, I did not read all of the WIX forum posts and whilst I did know that you were involved I did not know the depth and detail. Mine was a late-night knee jerk defence of an organisation that has saved/preserved a good many excellent projects and will probably save more. I did not mean to demean your efforts to keep their 'eye on the ball' on this one and apologise accordingly. If they are half the organisation I think they are then perhaps they will listen to you and change the colours to a more appropriate shade. Also I do agree with you about the gloss finish which is a great deal more dazzling then the 'metallic sheen' observed on the wartime colour photo of Black 5 of 5./JG54.
Sorry to have ruffled your feathers!

Chris

[markjsheppard]

Chris,

Touchy subject. If it was about the F6F or something else I had no involvement with or no experience on, then your argument would have been justified.

I will retract one statement - it was not a totally flat matt. There probably was a light sheen - more in keeping with their Bf109 and Storch. The Fw190 is very glossy even if classed as eggshell.

My critism is two fold. FHC should have allowed for a 6-12 months of trial and error with regards possible colours - right across the board as well as the variations in the psi strength of the spray gun and how thick/thin the paint should be applied.

Yes it would have cost money - maybe $10-20k, but at least then all the colours could have been assessed and the colour thought to be the closest match used.

It is not as though the colours were not avilable to see. Additionally they have been recorded. I am going to speak to the warbird painting company who has/had the swatches and see if they can be located. If found, I willl try and scan and post them.

If, I am wrong - I will admit I am wrong. Currently though from seeing the airframe right through the 90's and the hundreds of photos I have - the brown and green are incorrect.

We'll see.

Apology acceptable though not required. I want experts and enthusiasts to look at the evidence and make an assessment. Does the finished colours look like those on the recovered airframe - even allowing for 40 years of weathering?

regards

Mark

[markjsheppard]

Johnny

I know about the colours of Fw190's (and Bf109's) of JG54!

I can tell you that the pilot getting into the colourful Stab aircraft of I/JG54 could well have been Uffz Paul Rätz. He had a take off accident (ice) in March 1943 almost centainly in this aircraft(same camouflage and tactical markings) - 90% damage and Rätz ended up in hospital.

I have seen a photo of it following the crash.

regards

MS

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by markjsheppard

Apology acceptable though not required. I want experts and enthusiasts to look at the evidence and make an assessment. Does the finished colours look like those on the recovered airframe - even allowing for 40 years of weathering?

imho they do not, but it is difficult to judge by these photographs alone.