cr. of Bf 110F4 wnr4663 or 2395

[barkas]

I have same problem with:
44.05.30 II./NJG 102 Bf 110F4 wnr4663 100%
bei Bischofstein, Absturz, Aufschlagbrand, no inj.

44.05.27 I./NJG 102 Bf 110 F4 wnr2395 60%
Cronau, Notlandung inf.techn. Mängel
Uffz. Borkmann, Ulrich 1/-/-
Uffz. Lohmann, Wilhelm 1/-/-

but...
Uffz. Ulrich Borgwardt (correct) in Volksbund database died on 30 May 44, place of died Bisztynek, Poland (deutsch Bischofstein)

any idea?

[RT]

jan,

On 27.mai the right data are

Eppendorf hans uffz f v
Bourgeois werner uffz bf v

Wn hs to be the 2695

On 30.Mai

Borkmann/Borgwardt ulrich uffz f t
Lohmann wilhelm uffz bf t

Remi

[Jim P.]

As reported in losses and published sources (have not referenced the Volksbund db):

Bf 110F-4, 2695, Ippendorf, Uffz. Hans, , I., I., NJG 102, , , , , 27-May-44, Crew injured in Notlandung due to technical failure., , Lfl.Reich, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/779, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.76, , Cronau, 80%, H, Bf Uffz. Werner Bourgeois, ,
Bf 110F-4, 4663, Borgwardt, Uffz. Ulrich, , II., 6., NJG 102, , KG+ZJ, KG+ZJ, , 30-May-44, Crew killed in crash., F Uffz. Borkmann, bei Bischhofstein per loss., Lfl.Reich/Nachtjagd, BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/779, Flzg.-Unfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und usw., p.76; Balss, Deutsche Nachtjagd, p.283; Balss, Deutsche Nachtjagd, II, p.332, , Klagensdorf, bei Bischofsheim, 100%, H, Bf Uffz. Wilhelm Lohmann, ,

[Marcel Hogenhuis]

Dear friends,

There remains some uncertainty about the Wnr. whether it should be 4663 or 4863:

I have recorded that the Bf110G-4 (Wnr. 4855) had Stkz. KG+ZB and was in Rechlin between 10-24th July 1943. If this combination is correct one would expect that a Bf110 with Stkz. KG+ZJ would have had Wnr. 4863.

To solve this mystery, I checked my databases and discovered that a Bf110 with Stkz. KG+ZM was flown from Berlin-Diepensee to Venlo on 10th August 1942. It is certain that all Bf110's between 4822 and 4900 were either G-3 or G-4's.
As a strength report of the I./NJG 1 (RL 25/77) of 10th December 1942 reveals that the I./NJG 1 had no G-4's yet, mostly F-4's, we can safely assume that KG+ZM must have been Wnr.4666 and KG+ZJ indeed belongs to the Bf110 F-4 with Wnr. 4663 as reported by RL 2 III/779.

I wish I could get access/copies of the complete Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und sonstige Verbände, that would solve a lot of discrepancies so far found ! Jumping back to the first combination of 4855/KG+ZB, it is clear that 4655 would perfectly fit in the Stkz. sequence KG+ZA up to KG+Z?

All the best, Marcel / Venlo

[RT]

wish I could get access/copies of the complete Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und sonstige Verbände

Just need to ask...

Rémi

G-4 in 1942 for sure a bit too early

[RT]

have recorded that the Bf110G-4 (Wnr. 4855) had Stkz. KG+ZB and was in Rechlin between 10-24th July 1943. If this combination is correct one would expect that a Bf110 with Stkz. KG+ZJ would have had Wnr. 4863.

Too bad that one not match, I hv so 2 blocks missing between

TF+UX 4627

nd

NI+DA 4679 , hv you at least one Marcel ??

[Andreas Brekken]

RT

Please see your pm's

Regards,
Andreas B

[barkas]

Thanks,
but I don´t understand, what is wrong? The wnr. or Stamm?

a short summary:
27-May-44
Bf 110F-4 wnr2695
I./NJG 102
Crew injured in Notlandung due to technical failure, Cronau, 80%, H,
F Uffz. Hans Ippendorf /or Eppendorf
Bf Uffz. Werner Bourgeois


30-May-44
Bf 110F-4 wnr4663 (or 4863) „KG+ZJ“
6./NJG 102
Crew killed in crash, Klagensdorf bei Bischofsheim, 100%
F Uffz. Ulrich Borgwardt
Bf Uffz. Wilhelm Lohmann

I have documents Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei Schulen.. from BA-MA, but there are many mistakes. Is great, that all helps correct it!

[Marcel Hogenhuis]

Bonjour Rémi, hello Barkas,

When expressing loudly my heartfelt wish of once being able to consult all entries of the Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei Schulen und sonstige Verbände, I also realised that this would make a pile of paper to sit on... unless one of you should have pictures of these documents on CD-Rom of course !

If that should be the case I would be really thankful if I can pay for copy/copies ! Though this information will have the same errors as encountered with the well known loss files of the 'first line' units, all information combined would tremendously help to sort out errors, even errors in the NVM's (see for instance Wnr. of Paul Gildner's Bf110 in the NVM).

Rémi: now that we can safely assume that Bf110 with Stkz. KG+ZB should have had Wnr. 4654 (and KG+ZJ = 4663) at least 1 block between TF+UX and NI+DA is known: KG+ZA starts with 4654 and ends with KG+ZU (4675).

From the NI+Dx range following Bf110's are known, counting down (grey colour means that this is not backed up by hard evidence yet):

4700 > NI+DZ (TVK Werneuchen)
4690 > NI+DP (9./NJG 5)
4689 > NI+DO (I./NJG 1)
4682 > NI+DH (FFS B 38)
4679 > NI+DE (4./NJG 102)
4676 > NI+DB (I./NJG 1)
and therefore NI+DA in my modest opinion should have been Wnr.4675 but please correct me if I am wrong.

All the best, Marcel