Likely Prevalence of LW shooting Parachutist

[kaki3152]

While re-reading "The Enemy is Listening", the history of the Y service by Aileen Clayton, I came across the passage: "We had even heard on the intercepted R/T reference to British airmen being shot at as they hung helplessly from their parachutes, and this had hardened our hearts."

While all LW history I've read tend to disclaim that LW fighter pilots were wont to machine gun parachutists, it appears that the Y service knew of specific examples. I have read a report by a Spitfire pilot of 152 Sq who saw a fellow squadron mate who parachuted gunned down by a couple of Bf-109s. Currently,there is an article in the Daily Mail about historians Soenke Neitzel and Harald Welzer who have used the interrogations of 13,000 German military prisoners as the basis of "Soldiers: Diaries Of Fighting, Killing and Dying – or Soldaten in German."

The exchanges were covertly recorded by British intelligence at a Trent Park detention centre north of London in an attempt to find out whether they held strategic information useful to the Allies.Some of these POW were LW fighter pilots including one such who boasted: ‘In our squadron I was known as the “professional sadist”. I knocked off everything: buses, a civilian train in Folkestone. I gunned down every cyclist.’

From this, it stands to reason that British Intelligence knew of these German proclivities. Of course, this was common in the Far East where both sides did this without a second thought. One example was the crew of a shot down B-25 in Burma where 5 parachutist were machine gunned in air with one survivor. USAF fighter pilots did the same for Japanese fighter pilots.. Thougts?

[Nick Beale]

Every side claimed that the others did this and probably someone on every side occasionally gave in to anger/adrenalin and did it themselves (but wouldn't usually own up to it afterward). I've no doubt also that a lot of parachutists were hit simply because they bailed out into an environment where a lot of bullets were flying around.

[kaki3152]

Nick,

This is true and what I believe is that some percentage of ALL fighter pilots (both sides-10%?) did this. I have heard of specific examples from articles in Flypast and MACR reports of at least two circumstances , a B-26 crew in the MEd and a shot down B-17 crew in France which was witnessed by a evadee Typhoon pilot.

After all, it was War and some people actually like to kill other people. I've read plenty pilot histories where they agonize over the first kill when they realize they've killed someone. While there are others who enjoy the blood sport. Such is the nature of man.

This new book coming out with the recoding of captured German POWs promises to be interesting.

[Mark R.]

I just examined P-38 losses in air-to-air combat in the Med theater between November 1942 and 6 May 1943. There were two incidents out of more than 100 losses where the Americans thought one of their Lightning pilots had been machinegunned in their parachutes. I agree with Nick, in a swirling dogfight, it could happen by accident. When its one plane on another plane without any witnesses, it would more likely be deliberate. As for the conversation between POWs, some of the talk can certainly be put down to "telling war stories." Most likely everyone did it to a degree based on the discipline of each air force and individual motivations - which run the entire gamut from compassion for a helpless foe to deliberate murder.

[Pilot]

That was normal practice in war against Yugoslavia in 1941 and as I could be able to read, all over the Europe. For example pilots of Me 262 who managed to bail out was shoot on parachute. As I know Germans threat other nations in Europe mostly as unten mensch so that was normal while the US pilot state that if the enemy pilot get back again into aircraft seat- this could be danger.

Other question is how many of them enjoy in that? Once before I have said that many authors made many articles and book about the WW2 but still miss book about WW2 from psychiatrist (I guess that this book would give final answer why some things was done in that way).

Cheers

[shooshoobaby]

Paybacks are a B---H ,
While on an Escort Mission , Capt. " Pete " Peterson 357th FG , 364th Sq. ,
observed a ME 109 diving down on a B-17 Crewman that had Bailed out.
The ME 109 Pilot fired at the Crewman , apparently killing him. Capt. Peterson ,
a superb Pilot - Triple Ace , got on the ME 109s Tail and fired short bursts until
the ME 109 was so chewed up , the Pilot had to Bail out. Capt. Peterson then
made a firing pass , killing the Pilot.
Mike

[Don Pearson]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

I've no doubt also that a lot of parachutists were hit simply because they bailed out into an environment where a lot of bullets were flying around.

Along these lines of thought, who is to say that a pilot found dead in his chute on the ground, was not hit before exiting his craft and died of his wounds while descending?

Don

[Six Nifty .50s]

Originally Posted by kaki3152

While re-reading "The Enemy is Listening", the history of the Y service by Aileen Clayton, I came across the passage: "We had even heard on the intercepted R/T reference to British airmen being shot at as they hung helplessly from their parachutes, and this had hardened our hearts."

While all LW history I've read tend to disclaim that LW fighter pilots were wont to machine gun parachutists, it appears that the Y service knew of specific examples. I have read a report by a Spitfire pilot of 152 Sq who saw a fellow squadron mate who parachuted gunned down by a couple of Bf-109s. Currently,there is an article in the Daily Mail about historians Soenke Neitzel and Harald Welzer who have used the interrogations of 13,000 German military prisoners as the basis of "Soldiers: Diaries Of Fighting, Killing and Dying – or Soldaten in German."

The exchanges were covertly recorded by British intelligence at a Trent Park detention centre north of London in an attempt to find out whether they held strategic information useful to the Allies.Some of these POW were LW fighter pilots including one such who boasted: ‘In our squadron I was known as the “professional sadist”. I knocked off everything: buses, a civilian train in Folkestone. I gunned down every cyclist.’

From this, it stands to reason that British Intelligence knew of these German proclivities. Of course, this was common in the Far East where both sides did this without a second thought. One example was the crew of a shot down B-25 in Burma where 5 parachutist were machine gunned in air with one survivor. USAF fighter pilots did the same for Japanese fighter pilots.. Thougts?

It depends on your definition of prevalent. Whether legal or not, one can question the wisdom of a pilot who is distracted by parachutes and his own personal feelings, when he should be watching for enemy fighters that might suddenly appear to kill him. Major Gilbert O'Brien of the 357th Fighter Group gave eyewitness testimony:

" … Many B-17 crewmen had bailed out, and at least three 109s were gunning our crewmen while they were hanging in their parachutes. This angered me beyond words. I got behind one of these Germans, pulled up to extremely close range and fired a short burst. The German pilot, hit and bleeding profusely, bailed out almost instantly and whipped past a few feet under my starboard wing. The 109 blew up in my face. I executed a wingover, fully intending to shoot the German pilot in his parachute, but instead I spiraled his falling body to the ground. His chute never opened. After seeing this guy actually shooting our people while hanging in parachutes, I felt this was my most satisfying victory …"

On another occasion, Lieutenant Glennon Moran and Lieutenant Jule Conard of the 352nd Fighter Group said that a Messerschmitt 109 pilot had strafed downed U.S. flyers who were floating in their parachutes during a May 1944 mission.

I haven't looked into this subject long enough to know how often this stuff was reported, but it is probably safe to say that Allied parachutists had more to fear from trigger-happy enemy soldiers and angry mobs of German civilians.

(By the way O'Brien was cited from Fighter Aces of the U.S.A., editors Trevor & Constable, and the comments about Moran and Conard were from a 352nd unit history by Tom Ivie).

[Ruy Horta]

Ironically many German account describe American fighter pilots shooting up almost everything, both in the air and on the ground, hanging on a parachute or even civilians just walking in the countryside.

I think we run a risk of generalization and exaggeration.

It is far more important to establish to what extend such behavior was condoned or even stimulated (not to mention ordered) from higher hand.

Also what is the exact definition of combattant?

Is there a distinction between shooting an airborne trooper as he comes in to attack, or aircrew bailing out over friendly territory? One will be an immediate threat, the other one will also fight again.

Killing aircrew over what is to them hostile territory into almost certain captivity does not make sense other than killing for the purpose of killing.

During Guadalcanal USN aircraft turned the seas red as they strafed Japanese soldiers who were in the water after their transports had been sunk, how reasonable is that?

I saw an interview with a US fighter ace who described strafing a ditched Me110 crew in the desert, how reasonable is that?

What do you want to achieve with this thread, establish the general levels sadism or compassion in the Jagdwaffe?

I don't know how compassionate I'd be if my home town was left in ruins, with family and friends killed.
Perhaps I'd have compassion for an enemy fighter pilot, but honestly as a Luftwaffe fighter pilot I'd have little compassion for an enemy bomber pilot.

OTOH I'd be smart enough not to waste ammo on something like that.

Another thought, if you didn't see/use any tracers, it would be easy to misjudge a fly by for a firing pass.

OTOH, a close fly by might just as well collapse a parachute...

In the end I really don't care much about the topic. War is hell, people die.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

I think the right think to do is to compare the number of Allied airmen killed by bullets after bailing out (either by accident or by murder) and the thousand of them that landed safely and were captured (or not).

Most US unit histories I have read will have some cases of their men killed in their chutes. But it will rather be one case during tens (for fighter units) or hundreds (for bomber units) bail outs.

That said, firing on a "defenceless" airmen under his chute may seem awful, but there is no more chivalry in war. The whole point is to fire at an enemy that is not able to fire back. Most of the airmen killed in WWII were bounced and shot down by another pilot they never saw.