WNr.6453 F

[ouidjat]

Hello,

any available details about that Bf109E?
Thanks for help.

Franck.

[G.R.Morrison]

Bf 109E-7 WNr.6453 Stab II./JG 27, coded "<B + -", 15.April 1941 Notlandung at Bitolj due to Flak, 30% damage.

Bf 109E-7 WNr.6453, JG 103, 27.August 1944 Collision with Bf 109G-12 WNr. 16266, SG+JM, while landing at Stolp-Reitz, 60% damage; the Bf 109G-12 was damaged 15%.

I believe the suffix "F" indicated "Flugklar."

GRM

[ouidjat]

Hello,
Thank you Mr. Morrison.
We can see three pictures of that plane here: http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/B...7.2-(II+-.html

What about the "Winkel Doppelbalken" we can find on same page?? Prien is giving it as JG 77....

It happens that Stab II./JG 77, as indicated by Prien for that last plane, was in the balkan too (Deta, Vrba ... and it's close enough from Bitolj) in March-April 1941 period.
It happens, too, that the small vertical bar - say "B" - we can see on the 6453 looks too thick to be a letter but match pretty much to be a Balken or to be a Doppelbalken.
So sincerely I wonder if
1/ Is Prien caption right?
2/ Is 6453 caption right?

Cheers, Franck.

[Miguel]

Franck,

The W.Nr 6453 and what seems to be a hand painted F is clearly visible in the second foto of the link you have posted, and Prien cites it as <B, as G.R.Morrison says.
About the Doppelbalken, I have the same question...

Cheers

[Stig Jarlevik]

Interesting photo Frank

Some of the photos appear in Priens book about II./JG 27 and although not stated could have been flown by Hptm Langhof (the elderly individual facing Milch). If we write the marking symbols like this < II, I find them very similar to a Major beim Stab symbol, and perhaps Langhof was just that....

Is it possible to say in which JG 77 book Prien makes a statement that the aeroplane with the doppelbalken belonged to that unit?

As far as I can make out we cannot be 100% certain that the aircraft we CAN ID, WNr 6453F actually is the same as < II. We are close, but not 100%...

Finally, from where comes the airfield name Strumatal? Is this the same as Sofia-Vrba or is it some kind of satelite field close by? Prien says Belica specifically for these photos, but states the main airfield was Vrba during the units period in Bulgaria.

Cheers
Stig

[ouidjat]

Hello GRM, Stig & Miguel.

I hope there's no confusion between what I intend to say and what you understood.
If 6453F is <B I don't pretend it's not; Just Azizbiz since he put the pictures in the same page.
I don't know from which book come 6453F pictures. For <II it's simple since we can find it in JFV, Teil 3, page 25. as being of Stab II./JG 77.

What I say is: the say "b" border does match better with the balken we can see on <II than with a "B". I wonder how does/did appear the say "B" starting with that thickness???
The rest seems egal (camo, grupe bar and winkel)

Strumatal is Belica-Strumatal and Belica is Belica-Strumatal; not a problem.

I wonder if 6453 hasn't been send to II./JG 77 after the said accident.
I wonder if <II has been pictured in Norway as said by Prien.

Or, Asizbiz made me confuse, simply.

The only picture of Stab II./JG 27 we have is <H, the following one. You can see the "H" is small AND thin enough to be written correctly.

Franck.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Frank

Looking at Priens JFV 3 page 25 there are two Stab 109s having a similar marking <II, which is not possible to see in Asisbiz photo. Also the top photo on page 25 shows a 109 in similar markings.

Hands up I tend to trust more in Prien (a rather known quantity), while I have no idea who this Asisbiz is. This is of course no proof that Prien is correct, but if we assume he is, then we face a reversed scenario, that is a Stab II./JG 77 aircraft is transferred to Stab II./JG 27. How common was that? Somehow I don't find that very likely...

Then of course Asisbiz might be correct all along, although he does not quote any sources for HIS pictures and why he all of a sudden he can caption < II with such certainty as both being WNr 6453 and being in Bulgaria. Thanks by the way in identifying Belica and Strumatel as the same place!

Finally I have no way of telling if the photos have been taken either in Norway or Bulgaria, but it would not surprise me if the captions in JFV 3 page 25 both top and bottom are Stab II./JG 27 photos after all. I agree that the photocaption and loss record saying that <II is <B looks wrong and I wonder of course where it comes from. Anyone who has the loss record and what it says in original?

Anyway we have no way of saying, and I don't think Asisbiz can either, which of the <II is WNr 6453F, regardless of unit belonging.
Cheers
Stig