Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 14th February 2012, 22:56
Jochen Prien Jochen Prien is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hamburg / Germany
Posts: 558
Jochen Prien is on a distinguished road
Black Sea, June 6th, 1943

Gentlemen,

on June 6th, 1943, the Luftwaffe reported the sinking of a gun boat and two E-boats on the Black Sea coast in the area around Noworossijsk / Gelendshik. There are reports of pilots of 5th and 6th Staffel of JG 52 who accounted for these sinkings, yet I have no corresponding information from the Soviet side.

Can anybody out there provide me with some details, especially the identity of the Russian boats and their fate ?

As usual, any help would be gratefully appreciated.

Regards

Jochen Prien
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 15th February 2012, 08:53
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Tampere, Finland
Posts: 3,239
Matti Salonen will become famous soon enoughMatti Salonen will become famous soon enough
Re: Black Sea, June 6th, 1943

Just a hint:
According the book "Soviet Warships of the Second World War" by Jürg Meister, page 152 a patrol boat (Storozhevoi Kater/Morskoi Okhrani) SKA.MO.072 was probably sunk by aerial attack off Caucasian coast on June 6, 1943.
Also on page 239 is repeated your info, that two unidentified Soviet Motor Torpedo Boats (MTB) were probably lost by German aircraft off Caucasian coast June 7, 1943.

Matti
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 15th February 2012, 18:52
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 901
Andrey Kuznetsov will become famous soon enough
Re: Black Sea, June 6th, 1943

Hello Jochen,

6 June was a hard day for the Black Sea Fleet.

05:55 MSC (04:55) MTB (TKA) No.46 and No.66 were destroyed during air attack, according to shore observers.

08:20 MSC (07:20) MGB (SKA) No.039, 072, 079 left Gelendzhik for search of survivors. But during new air attack (fighters) No.039 sunk.

12:30 MSC (11:30) in 3rd air attack (4 Bf109) No.079 was damaged and beached (later repaired), from crew were 8 dead and all other wounded. No.072 returned to Gelendzhik, from her crew 5 men were killed and 6 wounded.

What is the time of attacks according to German data?

Soviet fighters from 9.IAP and 25.IAP claimed 1 Bf109 downed and 2 Bf109 damaged.

What about real German losses?

Best regards,
Andrey

Last edited by Andrey Kuznetsov; 15th February 2012 at 20:09.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 17th February 2012, 22:46
Jochen Prien Jochen Prien is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hamburg / Germany
Posts: 558
Jochen Prien is on a distinguished road
Re: Black Sea, June 6th, 1943

Dear Matti, dear Andrey,

many thanks for your posts. I'm still trying to piece together the events on the German side but have not been able so far to completely solve the problem.

From what I have I take it that the early morning attack was flown by a Schwarm of 5./JG 52 which comprised Lt. Wolfrum and Fw. Petermann and two more so far unidentified pilots. In spite of what Wolfrum wrote in his memoirs Oblt. Batz did not take part in this early morning sortie as is evidenced by his Flugbuch. According to Wolfrum during this sortie one Soviet gun-boat was left ablaze. According to Petermann's flight log and diariy this sortie resulted in sinking one vessel and setting a second on fire.

The 07.00 hrs attack appears to have been the work of a Rotte ( or a Schwarm ? ) of 6th Staffel and was the subject of a PK-report which has been published in several books. This report however has much of a fairy-tale. Taking part in this attack were Fw. Sachsenberg and with a "?" Fw. Waldmann.

According to the flight log of Wilhelm Batz and Walter Wolfrum and the memoirs of the latter a Schwarm of 5./JG 52 took off at 11.25 hrs for more low level attacks and flew four attacks on a gun-boat; whereas according to Wolfrum it was the same craft that was left ablaze in the early morning, which was now sunk, the flight log of Wilhelm Batz indicates that the vessel was set ablaze and ran ashore south of Kabardinka, where it was destroyed.

You see, the actual events are still shrouded in a rather dense mist.

As for German losses - there is neither an indication that these attacks met with any fighter opposition nor that there were any losses; the only loss known on this day was an a/c of 4./JG 52 which was shot down in combat with fighters off Kabardinka, the pilot becoming a POW. There is no hint that this combat had anything to do with the low level attacks on the Russian warships we're discussing here.

Over to you - any input is welcome.

Regards

Jochen Prien
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 18th February 2012, 10:31
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 901
Andrey Kuznetsov will become famous soon enough
Re: Black Sea, June 6th, 1943

Dear Jochen,

Thank you for detailed answer.

I look at details. Really, Demin (25.IAP) shot down a Bf109 on 14:30 MSC (13:30 German Summer Time), i.e. after German low level attacks. Soviet SKA pick up from sea the pilot (Uffz Franke) which bailed out. The time of claims for 2 damaged Bf109 is unclear but it seems it was after the event in question also.

Best regards,
Andrey

Last edited by Andrey Kuznetsov; 18th February 2012 at 10:33. Reason: errata
Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
RAF and RAAF ORBs available on the Web (new version) Laurent Rizzotti Allied and Soviet Air Forces 66 12th May 2020 13:14
British Second-Line Aircraft lost in France Sept. 1939 - June 1940. Martin Gleeson Allied and Soviet Air Forces 23 23rd March 2020 21:36
F4U-4 in action in Okinawa, 1945 Ferreira Japanese and Allied Air Forces in the Far East 30 22nd February 2016 20:45
Photos of 1943 B-25 Crash Rediscovered 1978 FinishForty Off Topic 6 17th September 2011 16:10
109E of Oblt. Herbert Kijewski, StKap 5./JG3 8.40 Larry Hickey Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 23 28th April 2010 22:22


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 20:20.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net