Me 262 - 29-10-1944

[Henk Welting]

Somebody told me that Lt A. Schreiber of 1./Erprobungskommando Nowotny based at Achmer, flying Me 262A-1a WerkeNr. 110387 collided 29-10-1944 with a Spitfire of 411 Squadron. The collision should have been in the area of Tubbergen (Province Overijssel - Holland) and both the a/c crashing on German territory. Spitfire PV240 flown by F/O Thomas Kinsler - J/35977 - RCAF (from Thomaston/Georgia/USA) at the hamlet of Sieringhoek 2½ km SW of Bentheim and the Me 262 on the corner of a wood parcel N of Gildehaus. P/O Kinsler was killed, initially buried Neuen Friedhof Lingen/Ems, reinterred in the Reichswald Forest War Cem. near Kleve in 1946. Lt Schreiber baled and survived.
Is this story correct ?
Thanks for any reply, regards,
Henk.

[Kutscha]

Henk, Stormbirds site says lost in possible collision with a Spitfire of 4 Sqd flown by FlLt Wikins. It also says the 262 was from 6/JG6 (???). Think there might be some typo errors.

[Dan O'Connell]

110387 Me 262 A-1a. Lt. Alfred Schreiber of 1./Kommando Nowotny, (previously 9./JG 6), took off from Achmer on 29 October 1944, and shot down P-38 44-23729, 7th PRG, piloted by Lt. Eugene Williams near Minden at 12:00. On his second flight of the day, he bailed out unhurt at 15:35 when this A-1a collided with a Spitfire flown by F/O Thomas F. Kinsler 411 RCAF near Sieringhook-Bensheim, or Flt. Lt. Wilkins of No. 4 Squadron RAF, over Nordhorn.

[Henk Welting]

Thanks Kutscha and Dan for your quick reply.
Regards from Holland,
Henk.

[Henk Welting]

Hello Kutscha and Dan,

Rcvd info that Leutnant Alfred Schreiber was slightly injured. His Me 262 came down twixt the farm of Mr Wesselink and the nowadays ring-road SW of Tubbergen, province Overijssel, Holland.
It's believed he collided with Spitfire PL953 of 4 Sqdn based at B.70 Deurne/Antwerp in the Nordhorn area (Germany).
Spitfire PL953 on a high level reconnaissance flight and flown by F/Lt D.C. Wilkins, RAF 101007 suffered an engine failure and was force landed north of Tilburg, province Noord-Brabant, Holland. Exact crash location still under investigation. F/Lt Wilkins became PoW (L3-8378).
Regards,
Henk.

[Henk Welting]

Typo...... PoW-number F/Lt Wilkins 8378 (Camp Stalag Luft III).

Henk.

[John Manrho]

Henk,

indeed a Me 262 crashed near Tubbergen, pilot Ok. It is also known that Lt. Schreiber landed with his parachute near Gildehaus. However, there is no 100% proof that these two incidents belong together although this seems very likely. Why do you think the collision was not with F/O Kinsler of No. 411 Squadron? This was the outcome of investigations of Gerd Poelchau many many years ago...

cheers,

John.

[Henk Welting]

Hello John,
Because Wilkins was flying a high level recce and Me262 always flew at high altitude. This is also the opinion of Horst Münter from Dortmund-Wambel, a passionate air war researcher. I've on file that Kinsler was attacking a train near Burgsteinfurt and was hit by AA fire in the Nienborg area, what's close to Burgsteinfurt. Will see what's in vol. 2 of "2nd TAF", already published and expected soon on my book shelve.
Prettig weekend,
Henk.

[John Manrho]

The data on Kinsler you use and what 2nd TAF of Shores/Thomas uses is the info in the ORB. Timing is the essence of the story. We know Kinsler crashed near Sieringhoek (SW Bentheim). Lt. Schreiber landed with his parachute Waldseite (N Gildehaus). Both sites are only a few miles from each other. The crash of the Me 262 at Tubbergen was "around 12.00 hrs" according local witnesses.

The loss of F/O Kinsler of No. 411 Sqn was at approx. 12.40 hrs. The bellylanding of F/Lt. Wilkings of No. 4 Sqn (after engine failure) was at approx. 17.00 hrs. I further can't imagine that after a collision which causes a Me 262 to crash a Spitfire could continue to fly to Tilburg, make a bellylanding and then report as cause of crash "engine failure".

Based on the assumption that the Me 262 of Tubbergen was indeed Lt. Schreiber's 262, than the Spitfire of Kinsler is the best candidate. The best way to further investigate this is to establish the correct time of the collision. I don't think the logbook of Lt. Schreiber survived, so this might proove to be difficult.

John

[John Manrho]

I looked into this further and I think indeed TIME is the most important factor. If we can establish the exact tme of the collision, than we can investigate the best candidate for the Spitifre.