dogfight/Sept.28,1944

[tjms50]

I'm trying to find information on an encounter between P-47s of the 508th FS/404th FG and the Luftwaffe in the vicinity of Arnheim. Twelve P-47s were bounced at approx. 4PM by a mixed bag of FW190s & Bf109s at 12,000 ft. My dad was flying White Four/ tail-end charlie position on the first flight when he was hit by fire, entering his cockpit, grazing his head, knocking him unconcious, & putting him in a flat spin from which he recovered at less than a thousand feet. Another pilot, John W. Wainwright, flying Blue Four position/tail-end charlie for the last flight, engaged & caused the destructin of six Bf109s. I would like to find out what Luftwaffe outfit was engaged & whether any credit was given for any allied planes shot down in this encounter. Thanks in advance for any assistance. Tom James

[Johannes]

Hi

By memory I would say JG4 was the most involved unit.

Regards

Johannes

[Ota Jirovec]

You will find an answer to your question here:

http://lesbutler.co.uk/claims/tonywood.htm

Hope this helps,

Ota

[tjms50]

I can't find where any units show the losses I would expect to see for the included date. JG4 appears to have been flying missions in France that day. If I could find out all the Luftwaffe units flying in the vicinity of Arnhem the 28th of September,1944, I'll try to research losses by unit. Thanks

[Dennis Peschier]

Hello Tom,

There were 3 luftwaffe units that claimed P47s on that day. All 3 units were equipped with the Me109G

I./JG77 claimed one over Germany (Wesel area?)
II./JG53 claimed 5 over France (Nancy area) 17.40h
I./JG.4 claimed 4 over France (Sarre-Union area) 17.30h

The last two units could have worked together. There is only one claim in the market garden area, on 10.45 I./JG.11 (Fw190A)claimed a Spitfire.

As you can see there is no clear solution yet.
Hope this helps,
Dennis

[Nick Beale]

I don't have anything for the 28th but it may help that operating over Driel (near Arnhem) on the 26th were:

Gefechtsverband JG 11 with Stab/JG 11, II./JG 27, I./JG 76, III./JG 4
Gefechtsverband Spaete with III./JG 11 and IV./JG 54
Gefechtsverband JG 4 with Stab JG 4, I./JG 3, III./JG 300 and III./JG 53

(Source: ULTRA HP 1354)

[tjms50]

Actually, I was not expecting to find anything about Allied losses since my dad wasn't shot down, only knocked unconscious, causing the plane to go into a flat spin & lose altitude without any flames, smoke or bailout, which at least was the criteria of an allied shoot-down. What I thought I might be able to find would be a listing of at least six losses of Luftwaffe Bf109's in a dogfight in the area of Arnhem the afternoon of September 28th, based on the claims by Lt. Wainwright during the same fight. I don't see any such losses by the groups so far mentioned.

[Dennis Peschier]

Tom,
I./JG.300 lost 8 Me109s, at least 6 in the Qudlingburg area, no claims are made by this unit. It looks more as if they were bounced and it is far to the east.
Perhaps other members have more information about units with multiple losses
Hope this helps.

Dennis