Bf 109 G identity seeked

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Hi folks,

Via Paul Wicht over LEMB Forum, I came across this excellent and crisp Bf 109 G shot, taken somewhere in Northern Italy during Spring 1945 by T/Sgt. Joe Mitchell, 379th BS, 310 BG.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...ream/lightbox/

"Schwarze 11" might well be a Bf 109 G-14 from 2./NAGr. 11. I would greatly appreciate any confirmation/information about this particular machine and the place where the pic was taken.

Hopefully yours
Marc

[Nick Beale]

Too much frustration trying to sign in to Flickr at the moment (your post made me think that maybe I should join up) so I haven't seen the photo but there was a Bf 109 G-8, W.Nr. 230292, Schw. 11 found demolished and burnt out at Campoformido-Udine in 1945.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Nick,

With thanks to Paul Wicht, here is the direct link to the website hosting this great shot:

http://www.warwingsart.com/12thAirForce/Mitchell18.jpg

As for the machine, it looks neatly belly landed with minimal damage in a crop field which is still in its early stage of growth (March - April). Crossing my fingers it rings you a bell!

Cheers and thanks
Marc

[Pilot]

[veltro]

If that is Northern Italy (and it is a big "if"... I say that because there were colour slides from members of the 350th FG which turned out to be taken in Germany), the only clue is the one supplied bt my friend Nick.

That is not an Italian (ANR) aircraft, and the only other unit flying Bf 109s below the Alps in 1945 was NAGr.11, whose losses are known. Thus, I rely on the plane found at Campoformido, maybe looted and set on fire before the officers from the Allied Intelligence unit came there and wrote the report...

[gogh]

If the W.Nr. supplied by Nick Beale is correct than its in a range of G-6/R2 models according Falcons site.

[udf_00]

The pic came from a member of the 379th BS (310th BG) from July, 1944 to March, 1945
http://www.warwingsart.com/12thAirForce/mitchell.html

Unit based at Ghisonaccia Airfield, Corsica during this timeframe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/310th_Space_Wing
http://www.warwingsart.com/12thAirFo...oncorsica.html

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Caro Veltro,

Thanks fro your confirmation; you will appreciate bet if this picture was taken in Italy or in Germany... Interestingly enough, the crop growth points towards an early Spring stage (April at the latest). If I read Nick well, NAGr 15 was by then still at it's home base of Udine. What are the known losses in March - April 1945 for this unit?

Gogh,
Certainly. The issue is about this being the photographed plane... Still crossing my fingers for any fresh information. The background question I have is the very peculiar camouflage with this small RLM 76 (?) triangle atop the fin. This matches closely the same sign atop of Bf 109 G-14 W.Nr. 463 141 "Schwarze 17", 2./NAGr. 14, which was landed by it's pilot on 8 May 1945 at Fürth:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2809206...57625539886908

Any idea for the signification of this peculiar marking?

udf_00,

Thanks for your input; I'm aware of that, but the scenery cannot possibly match the corsican one... This photograph was certainly taken either in Northern Italy, or, as Veltro points out, even in Germany, though my gut feeling would speak for the former....

Cheers
Marc

[veltro]

Just for conversation's sake, let's clear some logical points about my doubts on the real place where the photo was taken.

a) The photo wasn't taken earlier than May 1945, simply because Northern Italy territory was occupied until then and land of battle in the last week of April and first days of May.

b) A member of an operational flying unit could thus not be allowed to wander in such territories before the war had ended.

c) After the end of the war there were several instances of members of flying units organizing "journeys" in former occupied territories to look at the results obtained on the ground. In many instances such journeys (thanks to some extended leaves) ended up un France, Germany or Austria.

Thus, the photo can only have been taken from mid-May 1945 onwards, in Italy but not necessarily so.

Concerning NAGr.11 losses, one Bf 109 was lost on February 17, and on the same day one was damaged in a test flight. On February 21, one crashed in Istria. On the 23rd another one was shot down and destroyed near Cittadella. On 7 March one Bf 109s crashed and onother was damaged in non operational flights. On 4 April a bombing of Campoformido brought to the loss of three Bf 109s with nine damaged.

By 24 April 1945 all NAGr. 11 operations virtually ceased.

Thus, there are some possibilities that the Bf 109 of the photo was one of those damaged and unaccounted for, but nothing can be sure.

BTW, the data was extracted by our "Air War Italy 1944-45". In the book all W.Nr. involved in combats and accidents (where known) are reported, but there is no "black 11" other than the one found abandoned in Campoformido.

That's all.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Caro Ferdinando,
Thanks for your thoughtful and thorough thoughts surrounding the possible background around this suggestive picture. I understand better the possible time frame for shooting this photograph. The only clue it gives is that the pilot managed to pull out a smooth belly landing with minimal damage; I've checked your excellent book and all losses given for NAGr 11 obviously crashed...

And for the known "Schwarze 11" in Campoformido, well, maybe it was gutted later? Not much to add on this, but thanks to you and Nick for your reflections.

Cheers
Marco