Seeking history/info on Ju88As with W.Nr. 2099 & 2141

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

I'm trying to work up caption info for the EoE project for two Ju88s in our photo collection: 2099 & 2141. Can anyone provide subtype, manufacture date and any info on operational history or final dispossession of either one of these Ju88As? These should be either Ju88A-1s or A-5s.

Thanks for your help.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[Matti Salonen]

1940-11-06, 2./KG 77, Ju 88A-5, (88)2099, Fl.Pl. Celle-Wietzenbruch, Bruchlandung. Bruch 70 %.
1.Wart Uffz Müller, Edmund, verletzt

1941-02-17, 1./KG 77, Ju 88A-5, (88)2141, Beauvais-Tille, Absturz um 13.00 Uhr infolge Motorschaden. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Olt Hanschke, Erich, verletzt
Bordfunker Uffz Klein, Johann, verletzt
Bordschütze Fw Rösner, Erich, +
1.Wart Uffz Freytag, Johannes, +

Matti

[Larry Hickey]

Matti,

Thanx. Does anyone know the approximate date of manufacture (at least month) of these two aircraft?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[ArtieBob]

Based on the rate of deliveries by Arado, W.Nr.2099 probably was assembled in June 1940 as an A-1(VA+FT?) and W.Nr. 2139 also as an A-1 (PC+CZ?) in July 1940. This is all reverse engineering, so it could be in error.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob

[Peter Achs]

A meeting of experts!

@ "project coordinator" Hickey
If you try to write German names and places correctly, I might try to help you. See attachment.

The Ju 88/2141 does not crash on 17.02.41. There are many flights of this aircraft after this date. Aviation history is more than copy GQM and NVM lists in the computer.

@ Artiebob:
Are you sure that you want to write a book on the Ju 88? Since there is confusion in your details. Mr Creek is planning a book on the Ju 88. How about a collaboration?

Greetings to the "Luftwaffe experts" in the United States.

Regards
Petwr

[robert]

Well,

what a brilliant respond, I see three flights on 14.2.41 in FB. I think that 14.2.41 is before 17.2.41?

Regards

Robert

[obdl3945]

Hi...

Sorry, but I think Peter is correct with the date. I appreciate it looks like 14.2.1941, but I think the '4' in '14' is a badly written '7'.

If you look at the time on the next line - 15.47, the '7' here, especially at the top left corner, looks more like the '4' in '14'.

As a comparison, if you look at the bottom left of this list, the line starting '636', and work along to the column headed 'Muster' and see the entry 88/7184, then to my eye, the '7' is equally badly written but noticeably different from the '4'.

Not sure about the names/place names comment, though... I don't see Larry having mentioned either in this thread, or am I missing something? Anyway, the ones on the list are both French - Reims and Juvincour.

Regards,

Paul

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

What aircraft code is written here for W.Nr. 2141? 3Z+S6 ? The last two make no sense.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[ArtieBob]

I used to work for a German company and the attitude of the "Fatherland" division was a distinct amount of of disdain for anything "not invented there". IMHO my reputation as an engineer improved through the years as it really happens that USA engineers could actually design and build some things in the USA as well as they (but certainly never better). My reputation perhaps was enhanced by the fact when mistakes were found, I quietly let the German individual know about it so it could be corrected without an international incident, rather than make an ego statement proving our German counterparts were not a superace and could actually make human errors . We just didn't tell them, that every "English" piece of sales literature or technical information we received, had to be rewriten so it could be understood. It appeared the truth was there is no magic foo-foo that makes German engineers any better than those trained in another country. It depends on the training and knowledge of the individual. So, having been a pilot for over fifty years and an engineer for the same length of time and having a degree in history, perhaps I might be able to write a book about a German subject. I acknowledge that hard as we try to prevent them, our efforts surely will have some errors and will not sound as if was written by someone born over there. Apparently perfection only lives in a land across the sea. But absolute perfection takes time and who knows Mr. Achs who will publish first?

Best Regards,

Artie Bob

[Matti Salonen]

Peter, I don't quite understand, what you try to say with "Aviation history is more than copy GQM and NVM lists in the computer".

I am not an academically trained researcher, only an ordinary dipl.ing in aeronautics. Still, I very well understand all the problems, when trying to find out what, when, where and why happened to Luftwaffe aircraft and crews in aerial warfare in WW 2.

Contents of all preserved NVMs and GQM reports can now be found in my computer and I can assure you that there are thousands of cases, where Germans (not present "Luftwaffe experts" in the United States or Finland) have made mistakes in reporting. Wrong Werk.-Nrs, codes, locations, names, dates of birth, EKM numbers etc, etc. My estimate is, that 4-5 % of NVMs contain some sort of problematic info. So, official "history" is not quite straightforward.

However, I don't see any other alternative than use these original documents as a starting point for research. When additional or contradicting information will be found, we have to compare both and try to establish, which is correct or more likely.

Do you have a better proposal for research of Luftwaffe losses and what would be your definition of aviation history?

Would you also please tell us the flights of 2141 after 17.02.1941. That would help to put historical facts in order and correct again one possible error in wartime official loss report.

Regards,

Matti