Downed allied pilot in Iszkaszentgyörgy Hungary in 1944

[Jari41]

Hi!

We are writing a book about count Pappenheim family and the family castle in Iszkaszentgyöry Hungary close to city of Szekesfehervar. One special incident in the family life during the war years that we would be interested in happened in the summer 1944.

According to some witnesses an allied plane (presumable British) was shot down over the Iszkaszentgyörgy and one the pilots landed close to castle. Local residents were about to stone the pilot death when count Pappenheim arrived and stopped the mob and took the pilot to his custody. He was later handed over to Hungarian authorities.

Can anyone confirm this story and if is true is there any chance to find out what was the plane and who was the captured pilot? Would be grateful for any information.

Jari41

[Larry deZeng]

Is this fellow any relation to Graf von Pappenheim?

RABE von PAPPENHEIM, Ernst. 09.01.43 Oblt.(d.R.), trf from Erg.KGr.z.b.V. 300 to Minensuchgruppe 1 and appt Staka 2./MSGr. 1. 05.43 appt Staka 5./Minensuchgruppe 1 (to 08.44). 12.44 Hptm. and Staka 4./MSGr. 1.

If the plane shot down in summer 1944 was brought down during daylight hours then it was American. If it was shot down at night, then it was probably British.

Either way, it will be very difficult to identify the crew member without a specific date. Many planes were shot down over Hungary during the summer of 1944.

L.

[Jari41]

Hi!

In 1944 castle was run by count Alexander zu Pappenheim (born 1905). He died in 1995 in Salzburg.

If and as I have been told the pilot was captured in the daytime so it must have been then an American pilot. Incident happened between July 1944 and September 1944.

One more interesting historical detail is that family Oppenheim left they home castle in October 1944 because of approaching Red Army. Count Pappenheim returned once in the home late 1944 only to find out that castle was serving as a German army headquarters. Would be interesting to find out which headquarter was located in the castle!

[Larry deZeng]

Hi Jari41 -
Then the work at hand would be a careful search through the July, August and September 1944 MACRs (Missing Air Crew Reports) for U.S. 15th Air Force that was based in Italy. The researcher would need to identify all losses in and around Székesfehérvár, Iszkaszentgyöry being 10 km NW of Székesfehérvár. My guess is that the researcher will end up with perhaps 10 or more names. Once these names are compiled, how would you know which one is the man you are looking for?

L.

[Jari41]

Hi!

Thank you very much for your comments. I’ll try to turn to eyewitnesses one more time to have more precise information about the incident and will also try to reach Pappenheim family members.

J

[HGabor]

Pilot was most likely 2Lt. Fred Roberts Crawford (O-754075, POW) of 15th USAAF, 52nd FG, 4th FS P-51B Mustang (WD-C, S/N: 43-24871) pilot on June 16, 1944 near the fishing pond at Iszkaszentgyörgy.

[RSwank]

There is a book about Fred Roberts Crawford, written with his two brothers who were also pilots. You can probably find the details of his capture in the book.

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Crawford.../dp/1438904576

There is also a brief writeup here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=EkU...%20POW&f=false

[HGabor]

Looks like it is matching. But the story would not be complete without mentioning those P-38 (eg. 82nd FG) and P-51 (eg. 31st FG) pilots playing target practice on bailed out German and Hungarian pilots still in the air and while running chancelessly on the ground. Or the killed farmers, cattles in their fields. These well known (confirmed and public!) stories explain the civilian anger of those days. Not to mention other things...

[Larry deZeng]

Originally Posted by HGabor

Looks like it is matching. But the story would not be complete without mentioning those P-38 (eg. 82nd FG) and P-51 (eg. 31st FG) pilots playing target practice on bailed out German and Hungarian pilots still in the air and while running chancelessly on the ground. Or the killed farmers, cattles in their fields. These well known (confirmed and public!) stories explain the civilian anger of those days. Not to mention other things...

Yeah, disgusting and tragic...................you think maybe at briefing that morning they had been told about how the Hungarian Gendarmerie (Cendorseg) and Police had been helping the Germans round up the country's 400,000 Jews and shipping them to the gas chambers at Auschwitz? Could that have accounted for the momentary loss of their humanity and self-control? You think maybe the Lightning and Mustang drivers were American Jews? Gosh, what are your thoughts on this?

L.

[HGabor]

"Momentary loss of humanity and self-control"... To me it is still a war crime. Anybody could use it as a cheap excuse. Do not try to wash it clean or make it look less barbar than any other murder in history. A crime is a crime regardless of the side or who won the war and who lost it. The nazi war propaganda did not allow the general public to know all of the real details of what was going on in the camps. Those rural civilians did not speak English at all. The word 'Jew' sounds completely different in Hungarian. So I am not sure what Lt. Crawford was really hearing from them... Just relax and think again.