2. Batterie Marine flak-abt 246

[BIG TYKE]

I have been sent a copy of a "kill" report by the above unit and would like some help in determining if this is an aircraft previously reported or a new one that was lost on 22 Sept 1943.
the report says that the above unit shot down a bomber at 21:41 hrs 22.9.1943 south of the island of Schiermonnikoog. The a/c came down in the water, this was seem by the flak crew in the report.
No parachutes where seen and from this all must have been killed.

There are 2 losses from information I have found that were shot down over the dutch coast that night.

77 Sqdn LW224 Halifax II hit by flak 21:52 off Den Helder. 5 crew are commemorated on the Runneymede memorial and 2 are buried in Den Burgh General Cem.

432 Sqdn LN547 Wellington X. No details are in Chorley's BCL 1943 but information says it came down in the Ijsselmeer. All crew were captured later.

Both these aircraft seem too far from the reported action to be the same aircraft, and the crew would not have been able to see it in the water from there. do any of the more knowledgeable members have any clue as to whether it is a new aircraft? Or am I looking at this wrong?

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Regards

Nick

[Stig Jarlevik]

Nick

No answer as such, but from where is your source regarding LN547?

In Air Britain's LA100-LZ999 booklet the aircraft is listed as delivered to 432 Sq but then it states no further trace after August 1943. I then take it that its record card is incompete. Do you have 432 Sq record book or perhaps some Canadian information?

It is impossible to trace aircraft in Chorley's books, so I would be interested in if you have any names listed for the loss of LN547.

B Rgds
Stig

[BIG TYKE]

Hello Stig

The information on LN547 was originally sent to me by Rob phillips and as you can see he quoted Hans Nauta for this info.

LN 547 Wellington X 432 Sqn QO-G

22/23-9-1943

Skipton-on-Swale/Yorkshire - 19.07h Hannover

Flak - crashed in the IJsselmeer, Holland - 21.52h

Sgt(P) TIERNEY, L.J. - 1389224 - RAF - 357-634
P/O(N) SEWELL, J.R. - 148815 - RAF - L3-2635
P/O(Ba) WHETTON, L.M. - RAF - PoW
Sgt(WAG) MUCH, J.H. - RAF - PoW
Sgt(RG) WILLIAMS, B. - NZ412776 - RNZAF - L4-635

Crew was arrested on the IJsselmeer and in the Wieringermeer area
(Info Hans Nauta).

I do not have access to the 432 Sqdn ORB's so I am afraid that I cannot verify the above details. But saying that Rob (sadly no with us anymore and a ex-member of many forums) was very knowledgeable and thorough with the information he sent me. Hans is also a member of this forum and maybe he can help you if this a/c is of interest.

Nick

[Hans Nauta]

Hi Nick and Stig,

The correct serial is LN457 and on page 327 of Bomber Command Losses 1943 by Chorley.

I've checked the Aircraft Loss Card, but there are no clues on that regarding the cause of the loss. The briefed route was 53.50N, 04.00E - 52.40N, 04.20E - Hannover - 52.10N, 09.45E - 53.50N, 04.00E - base

Technically it could have been in the vicinity of the Isle of Schiermonnikoog.

It's difficult to tie up the claim with either LN457 or LW224 as there is another candidate: Halifax LK635 of 428 Squadron. As none of the crew members has a known grave this one may have come down in sea too, also in an inner sea like the Waddenzee South of Schiermonnikoog...

Regards,
Hans

[Col Bruggy]

Hello,

Bomb Aimer on No.432 Sqn Wellington:QO-G, 1554368/148837 P/O Leslie Maurice WHITTON RAFVR L3/2638.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/36161/pages/3976

Col.

[richard.k]

Puzzling. Air Britain has this Wellington as LN-547. LN-457 was also with 432 but was struck off charge in 1948 after a stint with 1690 flt and 19 OTU. The crew was indeed hit by flak, but in the target area. They ran out of gas on the way home.
Hope this helps. Richard

[BIG TYKE]

Thanks to you all for the replies

LN547: "run out of gas on the way home" would account for all the crew surviving as they would have been able to make a controlled landing. So I assume that the report does not relate to the 432 Sqdn a/c.

My gut instinct tells me that the report must be LW224. Without knowing where the "off Den Helder" info comes from in BCL 1943 I cannot say that this is 100% correct. LK635 is my research a/c and from research is said to have been lost in the target area. LW224 has 2 of her crew buried and accounted for which puts her in the vaccinity, whereas LK635 is a total loss giving no clues as to her fate, up to now.

I have a copy of the German report and if you would like me to send it please ask. It may be that a correct translation of the German may be more use in determining if it does actually belong to LW224.

Nick

[Hans Nauta]

Hi Nick,

I've had a closer look as where the two bodies of LW224 washed ashore and that's De Mok on Southern tip of Texel. Due to the local currents and tides it's as good as impossible to drift from the Waddenzee South of Schiermonnikoog to the location where te bodies were recovered.

There might be another source to sort out which aircraft was lost at what location. Document number AIR14/3213 and onwards in The National Archives in London contain the raid plots of Bomber Command. There is a map with the raid track and known losses from w/t information and witness reports of other crews. These last reports are also known as Z reports. This source is not often consulted and I'm convinced Chorley didn't use that for his marvelous research. It might shed a light on what actually happened...

Good luck,
Hans

[Stig Jarlevik]

Gentlemen

Thanks for your input.
First of all I checked Chorley and the loss of LN547 is very much included on page 327 ( I did not do that until now....)

Richard
You say that Air Britain has this information. In my issue from 1991 it is not.
Seems you have a later printing of this booklet.

So can we settle once and for all that it was LN547 which was lost this late evening?

B Rgds
Stig

[Jaap Woortman]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

So can we settle once and for all that it was LN547 which was lost this late evening?

I do not think so. According to the German report the plane came down in the Waddenzee between Schiermonnikoog and Zoutkamp. The distance between this crashplace and crashlocation of the LN547 is about 100 km. Even German Flak personnel do not make these kind of mistakes.
Further research is needed and actions are taken in coordination with Nick.

Jaap Woortman