33 Sqn RAF, 23/11/41

[BruceMk11]

There seems to be a discrepancy between 'MAW Vol 1' and the 33 Sqn ORB with regard to the interception of a Ju 88 on the 23/11/41.

The F540 indicates that after the successful interception of a Bf 110 by P/O Winsland and F/O Anderson, another three a/c scrambled at 0930. The ORB states: 'One Ju 88 was shot down by AA fire and the other severely damaged by the three a/c on patrol.'

The next three pilots listed in the F541 (ie after Winsland and Anderson) are F/O Tofield, P/O Woods and P/O Edy. I would assume, then, that these were the pilots who intercepted the Ju 88 and did some damage (probably destroyed in 'MAW'). However, 'MAW' lists P/O Edy, Sgt Davidson and Sgt Kelsall as the pilots involved.

Back to the F540: 'There were three more scrambles during the rest of the day but no enemy a/c intercepted.' The F541 lists three more scrambles: Kelsall/Davidson, F/O Charles/Sgt Stroud, F/O Dallas/F/O Anderson.

Can anyone shed any light on this-apparent-inconsistency? Who were the pilots involved?

Bruce

[AndreasB]

There were at least four separate encounters on the day on LG125,:

1) recce by Stab/StG3 after 0540 German time
2) Attack by I./NJG2 at 0815 German time
3) Attack by Benina Group at 1107 German time
4) Attack by Benina Group at 1515 German time

Losses 3x Ju 88 with one more Ju 88 damaged severely and one to an uncertain degree, and 1x Bf 110.

In addition there was a possible encounter with another plane of I/NJG2 (although this is unclear, it could refer to the attack at 0815, or to a competely different incident), and a recce at 0720 by III/LG1 which does not seem to have led to an encounter.

CX/MSS/459/T30
Following operations report from for 23/11 sent by Fliegerfuehrer AFRIKA IC to Fliegerkorps X and ITALUFT at 1730/23/11:-
“0540 hours 2 Bf.110 of Stab Stuka 3 on recce S. of DERNA as far as 30 degrees N. 1 Bf. 110 brought confirmation of the 2 field aerodromes. 1 Bf.110 missing .
[...]”


CX/MSS/458/T16
On 23/11 O.C. BENINA Group reported as follows: (document badly torn in parts)
“.... occupied by 25 to 30 twin-engined and 15 single-engined a/c and about 200 M/T.
0700 to 0900 hours:
No enemy forces on BENGHAZI – TRIPOLI road in area square 81-91 E.13: normal traffic of single M/T units in both directors.
Thirdly: operations 1107 to 1116 attack with 23 Ju.88 on enemy aerodrome square 2186 – E 23. with very good results. 5 to 6 a/c were left burning fiercely. Strong splinter results may be assumed. Fighter defences consisting of 8 Hurricanes over target. One Ju.88 shot down 2 Hurricanes. Medium and heavy A.A. Losses: 2 Ju.88 missing, one crew saved.
1515 – 1520 ours:
2 Ju.88 bombed the same target with good hits in the area. Strong light A.A.
1430 hours
Square 1235 – East 23, one man dropping by parachute, probably forced landing of missing a/c mentioned above. Rescue operation follows on 23/11.
Please send a Storch to BENINA.
Readiness return for 23/11. (Roman) I LG.1, 5 Ju.88 (Roman II LG.1 4 Ju.88, (Roman) I Stuka 3, 27 Ju.87. Detachment of NJG.2, 6 Ju.88.

and

CX/MSS/458/T40
Following report from Sonderkdo. JUNG, signed Ltn. SCHULZ, was sent to H.Q. L.G.1 on the evening of 23/11:-
“Armed recce in squares 015, 016, 215 and 216 E.23. In square 2168 W. of an English landing ground a very large number of M/T tracks were observed, running from E.N.E. to W.S.W. The landing ground appeared to be a base on the line of advance observed. The landing ground was occupied by M/T and a/c. Heavy Flak defence by light ... (a part missing here) ... R4+NK Pilot Obltn. HARMS made a belly landing in CATANIA at 1147 owing to the hydraulic apparatus being shot up. R4+HK, crew Lt. VOIGT and Fw. WOLFF, was shot down at 0815, probably while making a low level attack on British landing ground. The a/c was not seen again after the attack.”
Note: Sonderkdo. JUNG refers to (ROMAN) I/NJG.2 (cf. MSS/455/T9 and Note).

CX/MSS/460/T87
Special Detachment JUNG Abt. IA informed H.Q. Luftgau Lehrgeschwader 1 BENINA, near BENGHAZI on afternoon of 23/11 that Ju 88 R4+HK had made contact with enemy and then landed in BENGHAZI, after receiving 50 hits.

CX/MSS/461/T40
Panzergruppe AFRIKA and German AFRIKA Corps morning report for 24/11, sent to Fliegerkorps X (Roman Ic. and ITALUFT:-
Own air activity in addition to report for 23/11:
reconnaissance from BENINA by 5 Ju 88.’s of (Roman) I LG.1, East of AGEDABIA to BENGHAZI, without result.
At 0720 1 Ju 88 of III/L.G.1 reported that apart from numerous vehicle tracks no signs of enemy occupation were seen. In square 1061 E 23 an abandoned aerodrome was attacked with 20 bombs which fell on the landing ground. Also the field aerodrome in square 2185 was again recognized, occupied by 10, 2 F.G. and 3 (?0) lorries. 3 Hurricanes over the aerodrome. […]
Note: The sentence “10, 2 F.G. and 3 (?0) lorries” was obscure, and has been translated literally.



All the best

Andreas

[AndreasB]

I have distilled the information here:

http://rommelsriposte.com/2013/11/25...november-1941/

All the best

Andreas

[BruceMk11]

Many thanks Andreas, you've obviously looked into this thoroughly.

I gather you have a copy of the 33 Sqn ORB, so who do you think were the three pilots involved in the interception of the Ju 88 on 23/11/41? Tofield, Woods and Edy; or Edy, Davidson and Kellsall? This is really my main point of interest in this matter.

Bruce

[AndreasB]

Hi Bruce

According to Goon in the Block it was Tofield and Edy - but Edy says they didn't think they caused any damage, maybe a rare case of underestimating things. I presume they were chasing one of the two NJG2 planes, both of which suffered damage.

All the best

Andreas

[BruceMk11]

I think there were actually a few occasions when pilots either destroyed or badly damaged e/a without realising it.

Thanks for your efforts Andreas, and clearing that one up.

Cheers,

Bruce

[Stig Jarlevik]

Andreas

I am very interested to find out more about the losses you mention with regard to the Bf 110 and Ju 88
According to MAW Vol 1 the only Bf 110 loss this day was from 2.(H)/14 and nothing is said about Stab/St.G. 3, so which one was that?

Neither does MAW make any mention about any Ju 88 losses from LG 1 other than one which was bombed at Benina. Looking in the dedicated LG 1 books Vol 1 makes no mention of any other losses this day, so which were the two Ju 88 lost in the attack you mention as " 2 Ju.88 missing, one crew saved"?

Cheers
Stig

[AndreasB]

Hi Stig

I am afraid that is all the information I have - as you may have noted they are intercepts from ULTRA, so translations of German messages. I note however that MAW does also raise some doubts, mentioning that one shot down Ju 88 was actually found, even though the LW loss lists do not confirm this.

I am afraid I have no explanation for the mismatch, other than errors by someone (either the LW personnel compiling the message, or MAW in the case of the Bf 110 discrepancy, and MAW and Taghon in the case of the Ju 88 discrepancy).

On a more general note, my faith in accuracy in MAW is not high however (I know that is a bit like swearing in church). Look for example at their misleading account (I hope I got all the errors right!) of the attack by No. 107 Squadron on a coastal convoy on 11 October and at the report by the Italian navy which I translated here: http://rommelsriposte.com/2012/12/14...-october-1941/

MAW simply seems to issue false information which is not in line with the ORB, that there were two destroyers present (only one corvette mentioned in the ORB), that a corvette was seen on fire (ORB doesn't mention it), adds false information of its own (Priaruggia blew up in Benghazi, not Tripoli, on 28 November, not 27 - although I got the date wrong myself).

It then also introduces a third mystery Blenheim shot down of this raid, which is not in line with the RAF ORB (six planes left, two lost, four returned) - I don't know where this third shot down plane originates.

Finally, I do not think the idea that the escort plane shot down Sgt. Routh's Blenheim is easy to reconcile with the fact that the plane chased Sgt. Broome's plane, prior to the attack by Sgt. Routh's plane, and the very definitive statement that Routh's plane crashed 'having been hit by guns from the large m/v'.

So I wouldn't take anything in MAW as gospel unless corroborated by other sources. It really is a shame they did not footnote their book.

All the best

Andreas

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Andreas

Yes I noticed it was ULTRA reports, and wondered if there may have been some confusion with the NJG 2 damage. No, MAW is not foolproof, nothing like that is, but it is so far the best we have and with some corrections and additions, all of you who are working on the Med Air War are slowly getting there. :-)

Cheers
Stig

[AndreasB]

Hi Stig

One of the missing Ju 88s being an error I think is quite possible, maybe the one that buggered off to Catania? But if they rescued the crew of another, the plane presumably was left behind somewhere?

All the best

Andreas