Tr.Gr 186

[Adam]

Can anyone positively identify to which Stabsstaffel the various elements of Tr.Gr 186 were subordinate on 1 September 1939?

TIA

Adam

[Larry deZeng]

Adam,

The Gruppe I./186 was not formed until 10 September 1939. Only 4. Trägersturzkampfstaffel/186 existed and it made several successful attacks on the Polish submarine base at Hela and on antiaircraft positions surrounding it with 11 Ju 87s. On 3 September the Stukas attacked and damaged a Polish destroyer and minesweeper in Hela harbor. Following three days of concentrated action around Danzig Bay, the Staffel then supported ground forces for the next 10 days, operating from Stolp-West (to 2 Sep), Brüsterort (2-6 Sep), then Lauenburg, Danzig and Radom (6-14 Sep). I have no record on who the Staffel came under on 1 Sep 39 or what higher formation it was attached to.

Trägerjagd-Gr. II./186 (a.k.a. Trägerjagdgruppe II./186 and II.(J)/186 (T)) operating under 1. Fliegerdiv. on the opening day of the campaign in Poland on 1 September, flying cover for Stuka attacks on the Polish naval base at Hela. These escort missions continued around Danzig Bay until 3 September and then encounters with enemy aircraft rapidly diminished.

Sources for I./186:
Dierich-VdL; Tessin-Tes; N.Kannapin-FpÜ; J-P.Défieux-Répertoire des Unités Aériennes de la Luftwaffe 1935-1945: Reconnaissance Aéronavale; M.Holm-website ww2.dk; F.Kurowski-Seekrieg aus der Luft: Die deutsche Seeluftwaffe im Zweiten Weltkrieg:28; Mahlke, Helmut, Stuka: Angriff – Sturzflug:45-46ff, 70; U.Balke-KG 2/Bd. I:407; BA-MA Freiburg: RL 2 III Meldungen über Flugzeugunfälle…..(Loss Reports – LRs).

Sources for II./186:
Dierich-VdL; Tessin-Tes; N.Kannapin-FpÜ; J.Prien-Geschichte des Jagdgeschwaders 77/Band (vol.) 1:47-51ff; U.Balke-KG 2/Bd. I:402; M.Holm-website ww2.dk; BA-MA Freiburg: RL 2 III Meldungen über Flugzeugunfälle…..(Loss Reports – LRs).

HTH,

L.

[Adam]

Thanks Larry,

The KTB for Stab./506 does discuss operations for 4./186 (the 11 sorties on 1.9.39 it records as taking a combined total of 16hrs and 39mins) but it doesn't give a definitive statement of 'ownership.'

[sidney]

In Prien, Stemmer and others JFV der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934-1945 - Teil 1/I it was stated that ... the Trägergruppe II./186 at the beginning of war consisted of three Staffeln, two fighter, and one Stukastaffel, albeit still without the Gruppenstab.

JFV Teil 1/II Polenfeldzug ... although deployed in the realm of Luftgaukommando I, the Trägergruppe was subordinated to the Kommando des F.d.Luft Ost, which was responsible for the sea and navy aircraft in the sector along the western border of the "Danzig Korridor".

Not sure whether the above answers the query though.

Regards,
Sinisa

[Adam]

Thanks Sinisa. Unfortunately it only confirms what I already knew.

[sidney]

You are welcome Adam. But, then you should have all the information that you need - the three Staffeln of II./186 (T) directly subordinated to the Kommando des F.d.Luft Ost. In other words, apparently no "middle-man" there.

[Adam]

But that doesn't answer why Stab./506 should be so concerned with the issuance of orders and recording operational hours flown. It does that with its other subordinate units but not for those beyond its jurisdictional remit. That would suggest Stab./506 had some form of interest - perhaps even responsibility - for the day-to-day activities of the Gruppe.

It doesn't make any sense why other Gruppen involved in the campaign would have an intermediary Stabsstaffel that interpreted the strategic orders of the FdL into tactical assignments, but this particular Gruppe did not.

Not having the Prien volume to which you refer, any chance you could supply page number/s for the reference you gave above?

Thanks again for the input

Adam

[sidney]

Perhaps the Stab/506 did have some form of interest for the day-to-day activities of only the Stuka Staffel of the Gruppe (i.e., 4.(St.)/186)?

I am at work now, so will not be able to post the required reference before 18:00 GMT at the earliest. If nobody posts the required reference before that time, I will surely do it.

You are welcome. Regards, Sinisa

[Larry deZeng]

I don't know if this adds anything, but the German military system operated with four (4) levels of subordination: Eisatzliche (operational), Verwaltungs (administrative), Wirtschaftliche (economic, i.e., supplies, housekeeping) and Disziplinare Unterstellung (disciplinary subordination). It was not at all unusual for a Frontfliegerverband to be under one higher authority for operations and an entirely different one for administrative and other matters. I have even encountered cases where the front unit was under three different higher authorities at one time for a short period.

So the Staffel may have been subordinate to Stab/Küstenfliegergruppe 506 for just administrative purposes which included the collecting of operational and non-operational reports and statistics.

L.

[Seaplanes]

I believe the correct answer could be found in BA/MA RL 6/228 Organisation Seeluftstreikräfte 1.9.1939 - 10.1.1942. + KTB for September 1939 of Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M./O.Qu.

The following is given about 1. September 1939:
Subordinated to F.d.L. Ost: Stab Gruppe 506 in Pillau
Subordinated to Stab Gruppe 506 in Pillau: 3./506 He 59 in Pillau, 1./506 He 60 in Pillau, 2./506 Do 18 in Kamp and 3./706 He 59 in Dievenow.

On this date 4./186 Ju 87 in Stolp, was subordinated to Stab Träger Flieger Gruppe II./186 in Holtenau.

However, on 3. September 1939 the 4./186 was transferred to Brüsterort and became subordinated to Stab Gruppe 506.

On 11. September 1939 the 4./186 was transferred to Lauenburg.

Om 23. September 4./186 transferred to Danzig-Langfuhr. By then its designation had changed to 3./186 as part of the new Stukagruppe I./186 with
effect from 18. September 1939.

To complicate the picture even further,Stäbe Stukagruppe I. and Jagdgruppe II./186 was ordered formed with immediate effect on 10. September 1939 (RdL und Ob.d.L. Genst. Gen.Qu. 2. Abt. Nr. 2710/39 g.kdos.). It was further stated that with effect from 18. September 1939, the old Stab Tr.Fl.Gr. II./186 was redesignated Stab Jagdgruppe II./186.

I hope this is not too confusing.