22 December 1944

[Jochen Prien]

Gentlemen,

as it so happens, I have another question, this time concerning Luftwaffe fighter operations in the West on 22 December 1944.

While this day is generally considered to have been very quiet owing bad weather, I have two official German reports stating that Lw.-Kdo. West could in fact muster 262 fighter sorties on that day, claiming five and losing seven.

I can account for 95 of those sorties including six losses, all for JG 53 under 5 JD command. But which unit did put up the other 177 fighters, which would then have been responsible for seven claims and only one loss ?

As usual, any substantiated input would be gratefully appreciated.

KR

Jochen Prien

[Nick Beale]

I don't think the attached will tell you anything new. The Operations Watch report (complied from Ultra and Y-service information) for Dawn 22nd - Dawn 23rd (CX/MSS/OPD 1395) says this:

Weather permitting, JK II intended ground attack operations in the LIEGE area in support of army spearheads. KG 51 and SG 4 were to take part, the latter with aircraft of JG 2 as escort. Operation apparently cancelled owing weather.

[Jochen Prien]

Nick,

many thanks, the JG 53 claims were new to me and I'm most grateful.

Leaves us with just the question who the other 177 fighters were.

Best

Jochen

[RT]

Surprised that Jochen nd his team, never consider the Ultra data, they are full of tits nd bits, nd some mistakes ref. to Wn nd Kennzeichen, but deliver also many/many worthfull détails, on ops, losses, places...

Rémi

[Jochen Prien]

They do Rémi, but they don`t find everything.

Cheers

Jochen

[RT]

Sorry, I hv to think, that collect data , is one thing, give them an order, an other art

A supporter of your work

[Jochen Prien]

You're welcome !

Cheers

Jochen

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by RT

Sorry, I hv to think, that collect data , is one thing, give them an order, an other art

A supporter of your work

All I can suggest is to try researching Ultra files yourself and see whether you find everything at the first attempt! I constantly find that the messages I have include references to others on the same subject that I missed. Also, because words and longer sections are often missing, the significance of a message is not always clear until you have found others related to it.

[RT]

I tried researching, Nick, nd know how it's difficult, ....nd time consuming, espec. because usually people searching on, hv an accurate goal nd hv to read thousands of pages to find a dozen of imm. interest, my prior messages don't tell anythingelse,
In fact my first amazement was motivated, because I sent many times those docs to german researcher, nd I "felt" that they are not "extrem." enjoyed with what they received.. , but I hv to concede that I just suppose how Jochen nd his team work.

Rémi

[Jochen Prien]

Nick, Rémi,

the ULTRA intercepts are a very valuable source and I'm happy about every bit of information I can gather from that source. With parts of the documents now digitized at the National Archive access has become much easier although unfortunately a great number of potentially interesting docs have yet to be digitized and can be inspected only at the Archive for the time being, which renders them out of reach for me. This is because time is the crucial factor and I simply don't have enough of it to go to London and spend long hours going through their documents.

Being Senior Partner in a law firm and having a family with three boys aged 17, 15 and 11, having friendships that need to be taken care of and trying to stay fit with sports it goes without saying, that the remaining time leaves little slack so that it is a Long since accepted fact that there is no way for me to explore all potential sources in depth, so that the JFV series can only reflect the amount of information I can gather within the time available. That again is one of the reasons why I never claim to produce the definitive and totally comprehensive history of the Luftwaffe fighter arm.

I am always grateful for any input from fellow historians of which I have enjoyed a lot over the years and I can only hope it will continue like that. The response to my requests here and on LRG is most encouraging

Best

Jochen