The Top US Fighter Group?

[Jim Oxley]

Was it the 4th FG or the 56th? And would it be possible to post their claim totals? Many thanks.

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Jim, if you are counting just the air to air victories, the top scorer was the 354th FG with 701 kills and the second was Zemke's Wolfpack with 677. If you are counting the ground successes as wel, the top list is different:
1005 and a half for the 56th FG, 1002 for the 4th FG and the 354th is the third (according to my knowledge)

[Jim Oxley]

I thought that the 56th FG was the top scoring group in Europe. But then I came across a book by Grover C. Hall titled "1000 destroyed", which claims that the 4th FG was the top unit in the 8th AF.

[John Beaman]

Jim: Grover Hall wrote that book soon after the war before the decision was made to count only air victories, hence the claim.

However, it is one of the best reads, isn't it?

[Jim Oxley]

So in just air claims the 4th was the top unit? That doesn't gel with what Csaba has posted. Either way it is an excellent read - one of the best unit histories I've come across.

[John Beaman]

No, what I meant was that Hall, in the book, was claiming the 4th was tops and that included the ground credits. Csaba's air-to-air list sounds right, although I do not have the "official" credits easily at hand.

[drgondog]

The victory credit totals at USAFHRC updates based on solid evidence submitted and verifiable from such sources as LW KUJ reports attached to MACRs, enemy intelligence, etc but the databases are impossible to get to. Frank Olynyk, Jack Cook have contributed to such additions. I have also placed three into the record for what it is worth.

That said, USAF 85 was the foundation and the bedrock for all subsequent fighter victory air credits. The 8th AF Victory Credits Board posted both air and ground scores in June 1945. It was the basis for the USAF Study 85 Air Victory Credits.

The 354th totals in USAF 85 are 599 but Frank Olynyk was able to retrieve (IIRC) the April, 1945 'missing' IX AF VCB confirmations ~ 37. The ground score credit validation process was spotty in comparison between ETO/MTO and PTO/CBI theatres - so the answer to 'top scorer for WWII' is an interesting exercise in comparing contrasting, impeachable, and incomplete data.

Jack identified the top US Victory Credit Fighter Group (tongue in cheek) by 'press' when he identified the 4th and 56th FG - but the answer to Top US FG - all wars - is the 4th FG when you bring the Korean War 4th FIW into the picture.

As to all other 'air to air' - by virtue of USAF 85, it is 56th FG at 665.5, 49th FG 664, 354 FG 637 , 357 FG 595, 31st FG 582

[Frank Olynyk]

I have not been able to locate the missing XIX TAC VCB reports. I compiled the list of late war 354th FG victories from the daily OpSums (Mission Reports) of the 354th, which can be found both at USAFHRA at Maxwell AFB and the National Archives NARA II facility in College Park, Maryland. I also found at NARA II two notebooks which listed all the missions of the 354th, number of planes from each squadron, leader, target, claims and losses (it also notes when MIA personnel returned). One of the notebooks also listed the various VCB reports with 354th FG claims, and the number of claims in each report. It listed the missing VCB reports, and the total number of claims matched the unreported claims that I found in the OpReps. I therefore concluded that all these missing claims were confirmed by the VCB reports.

I am still looking for the missing VCB reports. The only place I can think of that might have them would be Quesada's World War 2 papers, and I do not know where they are located. Possibly the family of a member of the VCB might also have copies of the reports.

Enjoy!

Frank.

[pdame141]

Originally Posted by Frank Olynyk

I have not been able to locate the missing XIX TAC VCB reports. I compiled the list of late war 354th FG victories from the daily OpSums (Mission Reports) of the 354th, which can be found both at USAFHRA at Maxwell AFB and the National Archives NARA II facility in College Park, Maryland. I also found at NARA II two notebooks which listed all the missions of the 354th, number of planes from each squadron, leader, target, claims and losses (it also notes when MIA personnel returned). One of the notebooks also listed the various VCB reports with 354th FG claims, and the number of claims in each report. It listed the missing VCB reports, and the total number of claims matched the unreported claims that I found in the OpReps. I therefore concluded that all these missing claims were confirmed by the VCB reports.

I am still looking for the missing VCB reports. The only place I can think of that might have them would be Quesada's World War 2 papers, and I do not know where they are located. Possibly the family of a member of the VCB might also have copies of the reports.

Enjoy!

Frank.

Frank:

You mentioned the 354th OpSums, but I wasn't clear whether those are the same as the unit war diary available from USAFHRA.

I have the 368th FG war diary on microfilm and when I had more time (many years ago as a student) I found references to/copies of VCB confirmations relating to aerial victories of the 368th's pilots, including my Great Uncle's lone aerial victory on 8 December 1944.

Specifically, I have the VCB report of 10 Dec 1944 regarding the claims on 8 Dec 1944 and the confirmation report on 12 Feb 1945.

I would scan it for reference, but the copy I have is almost illegible (looks like it was a multi-generation copy of a faint original). Searching for these would likely be tedious work, and the existence of such confirmations might vary widely based on unit record-keeping practices, but it might turn up the lost XIX TAC reports relating to the 354th's time in the 9th AF.

I hope this isn't redundant and might be a fruitful line of inquiry.

Best regards,
Paul Dame

[drgondog]

Paul - the missing VC's are April/May 1945 for XIX TAC.

Extrapolating the 354FG Claims to VCB awards would yield 'close' with most likely movement from Claim to Credit in moving Probable to Damaged.