CARTRIDGES EJECTION ON BF109

[gilles collaveri]

Dear all,

I have a big concern: I found 7,9 X 57 cartridges on a Bf109 crash site (The 109 was most probably a Friedrich or a Gustav).

This matches quite well with the machine guns on board (MG15 or MG181Z)

but the issue is that they have been used (see pictures).

As far as I know, on a 109, the cartridges were ejected after firing.
So I should not have found such items, unless the aircraft had a dedicated container to collect them. Did such container exist ?

What could be the explanation ?

Thanks for your suggestions;

GC
Markings on the cartdridge:
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hlb: Metallwarenfabrik Treuenbritzen GmbH, Werk Selterhof
S*: material : brass
11: 11th lot
42: 1942

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Dear Gilles,

One possibility we can not discard is that, "MAYBE" after landing this machine caught fire...and the cartridges already on board started to fire by themselves....Have read on quite a lot of books (War Diaries, etc.) such similar cases, when the machine was attacked on ground attacks and the shells and ammunition on board started to fire...Generally the pilots or groundcrews run away to their dug outs and waited the end of all firing. That can be a possibility.

Second option (one need to know more about the accident for instance)...one blocking cartridge on the gun barrel or firing device (trigger). Am not sure if the body would stand the pressure like on your photo...

Adriano

[schwarze-man]

Hi Gilles,
Certainly the early 109G with the 7.92mm MG17 cowling guns retained its spent cartridge cases in the compartment under the cockpit. Also, cartridges that "cook-off" outside the barrel usually split along their length and do not show the impact mark of a firing pin. Cheers

SM

[ghostwriter]

hello together,

the cartridge cases were caught in a case bag on the plane.
in german it is called "hülsenfangsack" ...

see figure #2 or #6 (the newer one) at the picture below.

source: http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/...ate/waffen.htm (in german only)

maybe some of the cases got lost of them!?


best regards
ghost

[schwarze-man]

I think this is for the Bf109.

SM

[ghostwriter]

Machine gun MG 15

Manufacturer: Rheinmetall Borsig

Country: Germany

Year: 1932

Caliber: 7,92 mm

Cadence: 1000 shots/min

Weight: 8,2 kg

Length: 1078 mm

The recoil loader with gas pressure support was installed in various observation and combat aircraft until the beginning of the Second World War. It fired the normal infantry ammunition. The MG was equipped with a 75-shot drum (also as a double drum), a case bag and a windvane sight. The windvane grain was always adjusted in flight direction by the airstream and made it easier for the shooter to compensate the deviation of the projectiles.

same source ...
and tried to translate!?


ghost

[gilles collaveri]

Thanks a lot to you all

cheers

GC

[gilles collaveri]

I forgot to ask :

was this device specific to the early G models or was it also installed on the F models ?

TIA

C

[schwarze-man]

Originally Posted by gilles collaveri

I forgot to ask :

was this device specific to the early G models or was it also installed on the F models ?

TIA

C

Sorry, I repeated your MG15 but the cowling guns on the 109 were MG17 until replaced by the MG131.

SM