R-3 units in September 1941 x JG 51 claims

[Adriano Baumgartner]

A question for the Russian Historians and VVS specialists.

On the 1st September 1941, Fw. Otto Tange claimed a R-3.

On the 2nd and 3rd September 1941, further R-3 machines were claimed by JG 51 fighter pilots.

Does someone know the VVS Units to which those machines belonged? IS it possible to trace or match those claims by JG 51?

Sadly for us in South America, either the language or further sources (mostly in Russian language) make those researches quite difficult...so any help from the Russian side would be most welcomed.

A.

[Rottler]

Hello Adriano,

I don’t know the VVS units, but I quote the R-3 losses in the JG 51 claim tables of JFV 6/I:
1 Sep 1941:
16.13 hrs Stab/JG 51 Lt Bernd Gallowitsch, confirmed
16.18 hrs 5./JG 51 Fw Otto Tange, 7 km east of Sechtschinskaja, confirmed

2 Sep 1941:
06.10 hrs Stab II./JG 51 Oblt Georg Hackbarth, 20 km east of Sechtschinskaja, confirmed
07.06 hrs 5./JG 51 Oblt Hartmann Grasser, 50 km southeast of Sechtschinskaja, not confirmed
09.31 hrs 5./JG 51 Fw Otto Tange, 8 km east of Sechtschinskaja, confirmed
09.33 hrs 5./JG 51 Fw Wilhelm Mink, confirmed
09.34 hrs 5./JG 51 Fw Otto Tange, 20 km southeast of Sechtschinskaja, confirmed
? 6./JG 51 Fw Richard Quante, not confirmed

3 Sep 1941: no entry

Regards
Leo

[Fanair]

What is R 3 ???

[Rottler]

ZKP-57, V-11 or Vultee and R-3 were other designations for IL-2.
Source: JFV 6/I.

Leo

[Fanair]

Thank you very much Leo !

Alain

[Graham Boak]

The Vultee V-11 (and derivatives) certainly existed separately to the IL.2. Do you mean that JG51 used these terms interchangeably? As the V-11 was a radial-engined aircraft with a long crew canopy, they would seem to be difficult to confuse even under combat conditions and an understandable ignorance of correct Soviet terminology.

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

I certainly would have guessed R-3 was the Polikarpov R-Z (or Р-З(ет) in Russian).
Il-2 replaced the R-Z as ground support machine

Cheers,
Kari

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Dear all, thank you very much for additional information on the type, which I also did not knew for sure.

There seems to be an ANT-3 biplane (copy or under license production of the DH-9), also called R-3.

So, maybe some Russian Historians or members of this board can help us to identify what was shot down and the VVS units involved.

A.

[kirche]

Hello,
Tupolev ANT-3 (R-3, PS-3) not copy or under license production of the DH-9. It's different construction. A copy of the DH.9 Soviet-built-a it's plane R-1 (by N.Polikarpov)

Almost all R-3 aircraft from VVS RKKA served in Central Asia in the first half of the 1930s. The R-3M5 modification was withdrawn from service at the end of 1932, and the R-3LD modification was completely replaced by R-5 aircraft in the period 1933-1935.

It is not clear which plane was called the R-3 by the JG51 pilots, but in it's area for example:
02.09.1941 - 237 ShAP and 218 ShAP from 60 SAD on Il-2 - target a/f Sescha; frontline Dubrovka-Ol'hovka; a/f Dubrovka - about 8.00 (MT).
237 shap - 1 or more (?) losses
218 shap - 7 losses (4 - MIA; 3 - by AA)

Best regards, Kirill

[Adriano Baumgartner]

KIRILL,

My gratitude for clarifying what was actually fought by JG 51 (and Flak) and the additional information about the R-3, R-5 and P-3.

Specially in my case, the Russian Air War still is a much complex study of case and we indeed do lack books from "your" side of the History, in English. Am aware about tittles from Berngstron, etc...and some Russian Historians as well.

Thank you for sharing those details, specially about the 2nd September.

All the best and keep going.

A.