Air battle of 23 November 1940 over Kent

[Ludovico Slongo]

In Christer Bergström’s excellent book The Battle of Britain, an Epic Conflict Revisited, on page 269, there is a verbatim quotation from a recollection by Hans-Ekkehard Bob, a veteran pilot of III./JG 54, referring to a combat between Italian CR.42 fighters and Spitfires:
“I remember once when some Italian biplane were attacked by Spitfires. I was so amazed that I forgot to intervene; for the next few minutes I witnessed a most amazing air show (…)”.
By a process of elimination, this quotation can only refer to the air combat that took place in the early afternoon of 23 November 1940, when Spitfires of No. 603 Squadron indeed engaged CR.42s of the Italian 18° Gruppo over south-eastern Kent, off the coast near Folkestone.
Although several Italian pilots who took part in that engagement reported that a Luftwaffe fighter escort was assigned to provide high cover above them, and some of them also recalled seeing the condensation trails produced by these fighters, I have so far been unable to determine which Luftwaffe unit was actually operating over southern Kent on the afternoon of 23 November 1940.
Rather than clarifying the matter, Hans-Ekkehard Bob’s recollection raises further doubts, since a number of authoritative secondary sources suggest that his unit was already engaged in air defence duties over the Netherlands on that date, and therefore should not have been present in the area where the German pilot stated he was flying.
Among the experts who frequent this forum, is there anyone who can identify which German fighter unit was operating on Noveber the 23rd 1940, in that area (over Folkstone) at that time (around 14:30 Italian time, GMT+2)? And, if such a unit can be identified, is there any plausible explanation as to how Hans-Ekkehard Bob might have been flying with it?

[Laurent Rizzotti]

In the book "Battle of Britain - the forgotten months", there is first the description of a clash between 12 Spitfires of 603 Sqn and 29 CR 42s of 18° Gruppo, covered by 24 G50 of 20° Gruppo. Next to engage were 74, 92 and 253 Sqn chased "Bf 109s" but the author is suspecting these to be first the G50 of 20° Gruppo, who saw British fighters but did not engage them, and then Bf 109s of JG 54 who lost one shot down (pilot MIA) and one other damaged at 25%.

The book is not giving times except for the take-off of British units involved, but from the way it is written it seems that in the same general area were roughly at the same time CR 42s, G50s covering them (but failing to do so and not engaging British fighters) and Bf 109s of JG 54, probably rather on a Frei Jagd than on a direct escort for the Italian biplanes.

By the way both JG 54 losses belonged to II./JG 54 (one Stab and one 5. Staffel), so there is no proof that III./JG 54 was there too

[Stig Jarlevik]

Our friend Geoffrey Sinclair offers the following

According to John Foreman, 23 November 1940

43 Sqn Bf109 destroyed, Ivychurch 09.30
421 Flt Bf109 damaged, E Dover 11.15
603 Sqn 7 CR.42 destroyed, 2 damaged, Dover Straits 13.00
74 Sqn Bf109 destroyed, Cap Griz Nez 13.40
253 Sqn Bf109 destroyed, Bf109 probable, 13.45 mid channel
605 Sqn Bf109 destroyed, Smeeth, 16.20
253 Sqn Bf109 probable, near Maidstone 16.30

Geoffrey Sinclair

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Well 40-45 minutes over Kent seems to me to be a long time for G50 or Bf 109s, especially if the latter were based in Netherlands and probably flying at combat speed in an hostile environment.

So possibly Bob flew a sweep with III./JG 54 around 1300 hrs British time and saw in the distance the fight between the CR 42s and 603 Sqn, while II./JG 54 flew a latter sweep that met 74, 92 and 253 Sqn.

What is sure is that even after III./JG 54 moved to Netherlands, it was still operating over Kent, as Oblt Bob score two victories in the area during this period (on 27 October and 11 November).

[Chris Goss]

I believe the question is about Luftwaffe not RAF? Axis times would be GST which is GMT plus 2; RAF would be BST so GMT +1. Stab II./JG 54 lost one Bf 109 no time given. II./JG 53 suffered one crash-landing in UK (1610hrs UK time) and one back in France (no time given). IV./JG 51 had one crash-landing in UK 0930hrs. Total lack of Luftwaffe claims this day do not help. I./JG 3 carried out a Freie Jagd over Dover with 12 ac take off 1630hrs; nothing to report. Werner Moelders took off from Mardyck 1210hrs landing 1315hrs reporting nothing but again time do not match

[christian]

Hallo

It was the second mission for the JG 54 on this Day. Stab JG 54, the II./JG 54 and the I./JG 77 fly free hunting mission in the area Eastchurch - Folkstone - Ramsgate in the time 13.20 - 14.32 Uhr. The German fighters were flying at an altitude of 7.000 meters but made no enemy contact due the poor weather. At the same time, Italian fighter pilots were also airborne in their Fiat fighters. On the return flight, the JG 54 observed the dogfight taking place in the middle of the Channel. A Spitfire was witness crashing in the water. Elements of the JG 54 attempted to intervene, but the dogfight had already ended.

There was a reason why Oblt. Bob was still at the Channel, he need more points for his Ritterkreuz and, along with his wingman from the III./JG 54, was a guest of the II./JG 54. The III./JG 54 was in this time in Holland.

Sorry, the bad translation was my mistake, Christian

[Nick Beale]

Christian, this forum uses English except for quoting original documents. Many members don't speak German so could you translate your post (e.g. with Google Translate) please?