Italian loss June 10th 1943, Mediterranean?

[wwrsimon]

Hello everyone

The 14 Squadron O.R.B. records that on June 10th 1943, Marauder FK144 claimed an 'S.M.82' as follows:

10.40 LCTY 3052 – sighted 1 S.M.82 course 90. Marauder attacked from astern and S.M.82 turned to starboard and lost height and dived into the water. 2 of the crew were seen in dinghy.

Phil Listeman's book 'The Martin Marauder Mk.I' states:
"FK144...shot down an Italian SM.82 (or more probably an SM.79) on the return flight from Blida. The Italians tried to escape by diving towards the sea to gain speed but the Marauder had a clear speed advantage and closed on the port side of the SM.82. The Marauder’s turret gunner was easily able to follow the Italian aircraft and with a few well placed shots sent the Italian into [the] sea"

A couple of questions, if any one can help.

Where exactly is 'LCTY 3052', and is there a recorded Italian loss to tie in with this claim?

Many thanks

Simon

[Stig Jarlevik]

This is an interesting claim since it is rather oddly treated in MAW Vol 4

In the main text it is recorded as a S.82 claimed as shot down at 10.40H.
"In this case their victim was probably of an aircraft of an unidentified transport unit which ditched near Cap Granitola"
Reading further in the claims list we have
14 Sq Flt Sgt H W T Bates in Marauder I FK159 'W' s.82 off Leghorn 10.40
Note that the place of action has now moved to Leghorn!

Moving on the loss list of the Italians we read
48a Sq - 37 Gr - 45 St.T S.82 MM61191 '48-8' ditched near Cap Granitola, written off.

What complicates this claim/loss is that on page 82 in the main text we read:
"Elsewhere up north a S.79 was damaged by a British fighter off Leghorn and forced to ditch, the crew was rescued".
Reading the British (and US) claims there is no fighter claim for either a S.79 or S.82.
In the Italian loss list we can read:
Unstated unit S.79 damaged by a fighter, ditched off Leghorn, crew safe.

Since I believe at least 99% of the Allied effort this day was concentrated on Sicily, Cap Granitola makes
very much sense, while I cannot understand what a British fighter was doing in the Leghorn (Livorno) area.

Bottom line is I don't think any fighter claimed a SM.79 that day. If the loss is genuine it was due to other
causes.
The authors have in this case confused themselves and started mixing two places/losses together and I am
quite positive the loss of the S.82 took place at the south coast of Sicily and nowhere else.

One other thing is that you say the 14 Sq crew were flying in FK144 while MAW 4 says it was FK159.
Which is correct?

B Rgds
Stig

[Gianandrea Bussi]

The aircraft s/d by the Marauder could be a S.73 of the 56° Gruppo Trasporti that was attacked at 10.45 (italian hour) and 7 km. SSW of Capraia Island by two twin engined Allied aircraft during a flight from Bastia to Pisa. After being hit, the pilot ditched. After two hours, crew and 20 passengers were rescued by a rescue seaplane and a motorboat. Chief of the crew was Ten. Pil. Emilio Bernini.
source: S.A.S. I Servizi Aerei Speciali della Regia Aeronautica 1940-1943, by Massimo Civoli.


ciao


Gianandrea

[Gianandrea Bussi]

A 14 Squadron Marauder with Flt Sgt Bates shot down a three engined aircraft that morning in the Tyrrenian sea, as reported in Winged Promises, History of 14 Sq. RAF 1915-1945, by Vincent Orange and Lord Deramore.

So, there were two episodes: one with a SM.82 at Cap Granitola, Sicily, and another one with the Bates Marauder and the SM.73 near Capraia Island (off Leghorn)

Gianandrea

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Gianandrea Bussi

The aircraft s/d by the Marauder could be a S.73 of the 56° Gruppo Trasporti that was attacked at 10.45 (italian hour) and 7 km. SSW of Capraia Island by two twin engined Allied aircraft during a flight from Bastia to Pisa. After being hit, the pilot ditched. After two hours, crew and 20 passengers were rescued by a rescue seaplane and a motorboat. Chief of the crew was Ten. Pil. Emilio Bernini.
source: S.A.S. I Servizi Aerei Speciali della Regia Aeronautica 1940-1943, by Massimo Civoli.
ciao
Gianandrea

That loss you list is not mentioned in MAW 4, but it sounds to me like the loss listed in the book as the S.79.
Looking at the route Bastia - Pisa you pass pretty close to Leghorn (Livorno).

The loss place you state is very odd. If you are en route from Bastia to Pisa, what on earth are you
doing SSW of Capraia Isola??
Something here simply does not add up!

Whatever I don't believe No 14 Sq was anywhere close to either Pisa, Bastia, Leghorn or Capraia that day.
All missions given in MAW have them performing around Sicily.

Cheers
Stig

[Gianandrea Bussi]

In the book about 14 Sq. the mission of that Marauder is described as "reconnaissance (...) from Bone up the east coast of Sardinia and Corsica, then east to Montecristo Island and Civitavecchia. West again to the east coast of Sardinia and back to base".

So, far away from Sicily!

Capraia is roughly on the route from Bastia (airport of Borgo) and Pisa

ciao

Gianandrea

[wwrsimon]

Thank you for the replies.

I do have a partial decoding of the grid reference 'LCTY 3052' (courtesy of the RAFCommands Forum), which is longitude 09º 52'E, but I don't have a latitude.

That could possibly tie in with near Capraia Isola?

Regards

Simon

[Gianandrea Bussi]

Longitude of Capraia Island is 09° 50' so it could fit.

The S.73 lost that day was NC 30015.

Official SAS loss list quote this loss on 9 june but in the report published in the Civoli's book the date is 10 june and the episode fits with the 14 Sq claim.

ciao

Gianandrea

...and MAW 4 quote the italian loss on 9 june without mentioning any allied claim on that date.

So, the right date is 10 june and not 9 june

Gianandrea

[wwrsimon]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

T

One other thing is that you say the 14 Sq crew were flying in FK144 while MAW 4 says it was FK159.
Which is correct?

Stig

The ORB has Bates flying Marauder 'W' (the scan is not 100% clear) but no serial. Phil Listeman has FW144/M in his book.

FK159 was at one stage coded 'W' according to the 14 Squadron website:

https://www.14sqn-association.org.uk...er%20List.html

There is a photo captioned as being FW144 coded 'M' from September 1944 here:

http://www.14sqn-association.org.uk/...photos.html#14

Many thanks for all ther replies everyone. The SM.73 looks to be a good call.

Regards

Simon

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by Gianandrea Bussi

In the book about 14 Sq. the mission of that Marauder is described as "reconnaissance (...) from Bone up the east coast of Sardinia and Corsica, then east to Montecristo Island and Civitavecchia. West again to the east coast of Sardinia and back to base".

So, far away from Sicily!

Capraia is roughly on the route from Bastia (airport of Borgo) and Pisa

ciao

Gianandrea

Yes Gianandrea

14 Sq was partly a sea recce unit.
I don't have the book about 14 Sq you refer to, so I cannot comment about that.
I also see there is a Bastia on Sardinia, which unfortunately didn't show up on Google when I looked for it.

Seems MAW 4 is all wrong with their conclusions in this case.
Very odd indeed

However I still believe the SM 79 they mention was this S.73 of yours.
Which of course begs the question, how was the S.82 listed lost?

Cheers
Stig