Searching details on Lufwaffe losses on 10 November 1939

[Laurent Rizzotti]

First, to be clear, I have enough details for the losses of the Do 17P of 4.(F)/121 and the Do 18 of 3./406.

I search more details on:
1) a collision between an Ar 66 and a Bf 109 reported by II./KG 4, location Luftpark Diepholz, both 100% losses, 2 dead (source RL 2/III/184, page 68).

The book "Battle of France Then and Now" by Peter Cronwell has the same, just adding "both pilots believed killed".

Nothing was found in the KG 4 list in denkmalprojekt (http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/2026/v...der-4_wk2.html)

But by searching on fold3 in the "Germany killed" section, I found two people who died at Diepholz that day:
_ Oblt Rolf Richter (born 25/10/1913 at Halle/Saale), a Beobachter of 4./KG 4, died at 16h15 in an accident near Diepholz during a training flight (https://www.fold3.com/image/699600098, https://www.fold3.com/image/692496499)
_ Gefr Alfred Lühring (born 30/07/1905 at Ehlershausen) of Luftpark Diepholz died at Diephholz "durch eigenes ???? (https://www.fold3.com/image/692975186)

Can someone helf to decypher the card for Lühring ? Or have some details on what happened that day at or near Diepholz ?

2) while searching casualties on that date on fold3, I found the names of four men, all listed as being killed in an aircraft crash near Sillenmau (at 1130 hrs). They are:
Uffz Willi Lang (born 03/07/1914 at Bayreuth) of Flieg-Horst-Komp Breslau (https://www.fold3.com/image/691856204)
Uffz Kurt Olschewski (born 19/10/1914 at Alt-Uka) of Flieg-Horst-Komp Breslau (https://www.fold3.com/image/692944607)
Uffz Erich Reissner (born 14/10/1916 at Lübeck) of Flieg-Horst-Komp Breslau (https://www.fold3.com/image/699603402)
Gefr Alfred Wochnik (born 23/05/1907 at Hindenburg ) of Luftzeuggruppe 8, Breslau (Flieg-Horst-Komp Breslau was written before and stricken) (https://www.fold3.com/image/693238886)

I guess they were killed in the crash of a school aircraft. Nothing in RL 2/III-184, and the files dedicated for school units start only in September 1940.

Has someone more details on this crash ?

Thanks in advance

[Luc Vervoort]

Hi Laurent,

'durch eigenes ...' is 'durch eigenes Verschulden' = by own fault.

Best regards

Luc

[Nick Beale]

There's several files of 1939 KG 4 diaries and annexes on German Docs in Russia that may help: https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/...ffe-okl?page=2

Scroll down the page to Akten 566–578.

[JoMe]

Hi Laurent
I have the following:
10.11.1939 / II(4)/KG 4 / FP Diepholz (LP Diepholz) / Ar 66 / 100% / Koll./Boden Bf109 / Oblt Wolf Richter + / 2III/184,67; Ancestry

10.11.1939 / LP Diepholz / FP Diepholz / Bf 109 E-3 / WL - LP XIC ? / 100% / H / Koll./Boden Ar66 / Gefr Alfred Lühring +

I am not aware of the losses listed under point 2.
The aircraft accident reports for November 1939 mention two crashes that might be relevant:
Ju W 34, WL-ANOE (likely actually WL-ODOE) and Bf 108, WL-INFD (both resulting in 4 fatalities each).
There are two other crashes that also resulted in 4 fatalities; however, based on their VKZ, these can be attributed to different units.

I hope it's a little help.
JoMe

[Matti Salonen]

1939-11-10, Jagdfl.Schule Werneuchen, Bf 108 B-1, 1980, WL-INFD, Bei Schochwitz
Flugzeugführer Uffz Reissner, Erich (* 1916-10-14, EM Nr. 658), tot
Begleiter Uffz Lang, Wilhelm (* 1914-07-30, EM Nr. 125), tot
Begleiter Uffz Olschewski, Kurt (* 1914-10-19, EM Nr. 623), tot
Begleiter Gefr Wochnik, Alfred (* 1907-05-23, EM Nr. 72), tot
Absturz um 11.30 Uhr. Bruch 100 %.

Matti

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Thanks a lot to all of you

Luc and JoMe, from your contributions I now know that this was a ground collision. Gefr Alfred Lühring, probably a ground crew of Luftpark Diepholz, probably made a mistake while taxying a Bf 109, or even might have taxied it without authorisation and collided with the Ar 66 flown by Oblt Richter. At least some blame is put on Lühring and none listed for Richter.

Nick, thanks also but sadly the KG 4 papers on https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org only cover the days of the Polish campaign, and some weeks before and after, but not that date.

Matti, thanks as always for your sharing of knowledge. A little mystery that the men are all listed by their death cards as belonging to units based in Breslau while being killed in an aircraft from an unit based at Werneuchen. Possibly a transfer flight.

Best regards

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Originally Posted by JoMe

The aircraft accident reports for November 1939 mention two crashes that might be relevant:
Ju W 34, WL-ANOE (likely actually WL-ODOE) and Bf 108, WL-INFD (both resulting in 4 fatalities each).
There are two other crashes that also resulted in 4 fatalities; however, based on their VKZ, these can be attributed to different units.

Jo, just to be clear, these four crashes with 4 fatalities each (including the one I was searching, the Bf 108) are listed for the whole month of November 1939, or only for 10 November ?

[JoMe]

It was listed for the month November 1939.
the other planes was:
Do 18 / K6+KK -and-
He 111 / IH + HI (really 1H+HN).

Many thanks, Matti, for the identification.
However, it is not entirely clear to me why the entire crew came from the Flugplatzkommandantur Breslau. Was the aircraft there for maintenance or repairs ?