Finnish Brewsters

[Jan vd Heuvel]

Can Finnish planes be called Axis Air Force ?

The Finns were certainly on the same team fighting the Russians.

See

http://www.nederlandseluchtvaart.nl/...ewsters-16337/

Jan

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

Thank you for posting these pictures!

One interesting detail is that some (or all then in service vs. stored?) of the FinnAF Brewsters got coloured rudders and tactical numbers already in Summer 1940. When still painted in aluminum dope. I should have copies of couple of Brewster individual flight logs which mention the rudder painting with date.

As you have this album (?) is it possible to identify this Brewster taking of in the snow?
http://www.nederlandseluchtvaart.nl/...rewster-05.jpg

Perhaps a close-up scan with greater resolution?

It looks like it has dark rudder with darkish number making it a 3rd flight machine (Olive green rudder with orange number - orange is dark with some types of film material). There is another photo from 3rd flight markings on aluminum dope Brewster - "3" (IIRC it was BW-363). Photo can be found in the latest edition of the Brewster book by Keskinen et al.

I wonder why photos of these early coloured rudders can be found only of the 3rd and 4th (black numbers on white rudder) flights of 24 squadron? One logical reason might be that these were not painted on the other two flight Brewsters, of course.


Cheers,
Kari

PS Of the axis thing. I've used to see Finnish AF discussion on this section of the forum. Either way is right, depending the time frame: Winter War, Interim Peace, Continuation War, Lapland War. Of these only Continuation War was fought on Axis side.

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

I do not never write this way about FAF as Axis Air Forces.
The political and military realtions between Finland and III Reich were not so tight to be called as Axis's ally.

Both, they had common enemy, Stalin and Soviet Russia, but the reasons, which they fought thier wars were total different. First and second war Finland was under Soviet attack and had defend their independence. Soviet Russia was twice an agressor. Continuation War had began after suden, preemptive Soviet air attack on 25.06.41

Second Finland was democratics states, all Axis's states were more or less dictatorships, or even a few were total's states (Italy, Croat, Slovak, Spain, Romania, Hungary). This is second distinction of not being Axis's ally.
And last but not least, all Axis's states had deliberatly participated in Holocaust. I do not hear this about Finland.

Regards,
Mirek Wawrzyński

[mars]

Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski

I do not never write this way about FAF as Axis Air Forces.
The political and military realtions between Finland and III Reich were not so tight to be called as Axis's ally.

Both, they had common enemy, Stalin and Soviet Russia, but the reasons, which they fought thier wars were total different. First and second war Finland was under Soviet attack and had defend their independence. Soviet Russia was twice an agressor. Continuation War had began after suden, preemptive Soviet air attack on 25.06.41

Second Finland was democratics states, all Axis's states were more or less dictatorships, or even a few were total's states (Italy, Croat, Slovak, Spain, Romania, Hungary). This is second distinction of not being Axis's ally.
And last but not least, all Axis's states had deliberatly participated in Holocaust. I do not hear this about Finland.

Regards,
Mirek Wawrzyński

Then I dare to ask, was Soviet Russian an ally of UK and America in the WWII?

[mars]

Allies in the war are those countries decided to work together and fought the common enemy; it does not really matter whether those countries had the same political system, and they could well hate each other secretly and become enemy in the next war. So Finland was as much an ally to Germany as Soviet was an ally to UK and America in the WWII.

[Jan vd Heuvel]

Hello Kari,

the Brewster taking off in the snow (on a frozen lake?) is BW367.

Regards,
Jan

[Jan vd Heuvel]

As or the Finnish State being an Axis State and therefor the Air Force being an Axis Air Force my opinion is that at certain times the FAF can be considered an Ally to Germany, but it as not an Axis Air Force.

In consider Axis Air Forces as being under the influance of Germany or under some sort of control by Germany.

And Finland was an Independant State and Germany had no control over it or influance over it.

As far as I know the Finns never declared themselfs as Allies to Germany.

Jan

[Jukka Juutinen]

Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski

Continuation War had began after suden, preemptive Soviet air attack on 25.06.41

It should be well known today that some Finnish bases were used for some operations as a part of the Operation Barbarossa before that date. If I recall it right, some mining operations started on June 21.

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

Thanks for the close-up, Jan! It brings more questions.

BW-367 had words TRE BRÖDER (three brothers in Swedish) painted on fuselage side after arrival to Finland. Is it visible in the photo? I cannot make it out. BW-367 suffered landing accident 23.3.1940, was sent to VL factory for repairs and back in 24 squadron strength september 1940. Perhaps the title was painted over during the repairs?

18.6.1941 BW-367 was in 2nd Flight (white 7 on black rudder). As there clearly is not white number on black rudder in Your photo it means: either BW-367 rudder was not painted and dark rudder is play of light or the plane was with other flight (likely 3rd). Is it possible to press out any number on the rudder with photo manipulation or something?

I managed to find my notes from the Brewster plane logs. Unfortunately only few of them are archived and even fewer mention painting of the flight markings. Here are all I could find:

BW-363 20.7.1940 "Sivuperäsin maalattu" (rudder painted)
Notes: 3rd flight plane. Photo of aluminum painted BW-363 with number 3 on rudder can be found in Keskinen et al book Brewster Model 239, p. 14 (4th edittion published by Apali Oy, ISBN 952-5026-02-7)

BW-369 20.7.40 "Peräsimet maalattu" (literally: rudders painted ( why the plural?, KL))
Notes: Also 3rd flight plane. I have not seen photo of this plane with number painted on rudder. BW-369 was written off in take-off accident 28.6.1941.

BW-382 4.8.1940 "Maalattu 4./LLV 24:n tunnukset" (4./LLv 24 markings painted).
Notes: This is very interesting as no book gives BW-382 being attached to 4th flight! The plane suffered landing accident 12.12.1940 and was sent to VL factory for repairs. After that plane was in 1st flight.

This would imply that date of the photos of BW-387/"black 8" and BW-386(?)/"black 3" were taken after early August 1940. They were both 4th flight Brewsters. It also seems that Interim Peace-period flight allocation of Brewsters differed from the June 1941 one.
　
All in all it can be said that the pre-Continuation War history of FinnAF Brewsters is poorly researched (perhaps even poorly recorded).
　
Cheers,
Kari
　

[mars]

Originally Posted by Jan vd Heuvel

As or the Finnish State being an Axis State and therefor the Air Force being an Axis Air Force my opinion is that at certain times the FAF can be considered an Ally to Germany, but it as not an Axis Air Force.

In consider Axis Air Forces as being under the influance of Germany or under some sort of control by Germany.

And Finland was an Independant State and Germany had no control over it or influance over it.

As far as I know the Finns never declared themselfs as Allies to Germany.

Jan

I understand the political system of Finland and Germany were very different, and Finland had a very justify cause to fight Soviet after 1941, but whether Finland declared herself as Allies to Germany was just formality, Finland and Germany fought together against their common enemy Soviet Russia though for completely different reason, and this fact made them allies, and since after 1941, the fate of Finland would be heavily influenced by the result of the war between Germany and Soviet, so I do not agree Germany had no influence in Finland’s policy making. Of course Germany did control Finland, but America did not control Soviet either, that did not prevent them to be allies.